What Do You Think of Spanking as a Form of Discipline?

[bejohnson]

Little Haiti shop owner says he's justified in spanking teenage girl (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-dbelt29dec29,0,1145544.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines)
By Diana Marrero
Miami Bureau

December 29, 2003


MIAMI -- The 13-year-old girl has a pretty face and a slight frame. But to Lonnie Grigsby, 52, her sweet appearance masks an unruly attitude.

Grigsby, who runs a mini-mart just blocks from the girl's middle school in Little Haiti, says the teenager sassed him one too many times this month.

So Grigsby took off his belt and gave the girl what he thought she needed: a "good whupping."

"She's beyond sassy; she's out of control," said Grigsby, who said he hit the girl after she called him a number of expletives and threw two coins at his head. "I bet her parents never gave her a whupping. She needed it."

Grigsby's actions landed him in jail and set off a firestorm of debate in a community divided by both generational and cultural differences when it comes to disciplining children.

In a neighborhood that's grown increasingly Haitian, Grigsby's actions resonate with many people -- immigrants grappling with American views on corporal punishment and older AfricanAmericans who remember when even their neighbors could whip them with a switch.

But those who disagree with Grigsby point to his arrest as proof our society no longer tolerates that kind of behavior.

Grigsby says his troubles with the girl began long before his arrest Dec. 12. Grigsby said the teen, who was not identified by police to protect her privacy, had shoplifted items, called him names and disregarded numerous pleas to stop skating inside the market.

But Grigsby, who says he was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon in the early '80s, hesitated calling the police for fear of giving the girl the same black mark he has had to deal with for decades.

The breaking point, he said, was when she gave him too much money for a 60-cent bag of chips.

"You can't count?" he recalls asking.

That's when he said the girl began calling him names, spat at him and threw the two nickels he returned to her at his head.

"She wanted to stand in the middle of the store and argue with me like a grownup," Grigsby said. "Somebody's got to step up and say, `You can't act like that in public.'"

Grigsby, who is African-American, says his parents never spared him the belt. And he, in turn, never spared it on any of his eight children, who turned out just fine, he said.

"Nobody's in jail, nobody has a criminal record, nobody got shot. That's good to me," said Grigsby, who argues that children these days don't respect adults because society has become too soft on discipline.

But to Dan Kaufman, an attorney representing the Haitian girl in a pending lawsuit, Grigsby's comments are completely out of line.

"There's not a jury in this country who would support this type of behavior," Kaufman said. "If he wants to practice that on his own children, I pray for them, but he certainly can't do that to a child he doesn't even know."

Grigsby, who is out on $6,500 bail, is charged with misdemeanor battery and false imprisonment, a felony, for allegedly ordering another young customer to lock the shop's door and then beating the girl. He will celebrate his 53rd birthday in court at his arraignment Friday.

While he doesn't deny hitting his teenage customer, Grigsby says the door was never locked -- a distinction that could make a big difference in Grigsby's sentence if he's convicted.

Grigsby, who is raising two young daughters, worries his fiancée might have to close Legends Mini-Mart and he will have to send his daughters to live with relatives in Michigan if he is found guilty of the false imprisonment charge -- which is punishable by up to five years in prison.

"Just for giving a girl a spanking, I get all this attention," Grigsby said.

Grigsby ran a cab company in Detroit before coming to Miami five years ago to get away from street violence. He and his fiancée chose the mini-mart because it was near two schools, which they figured would provide him a steady customer base.

But the business, only miles from downtown Miami, also came with unexpected headaches: Children who misbehave and steal items from his store and a neighborhood that's nearly as violent as the one he left behind.

Still, Grigsby said he got along with most of his young customers and business was going smoothly until his recent arrest.

A sign posted outside the mini-mart instructs students to dress nicely and neatly comb their hair if they want to testify on his behalf during his trial because the case will be aired on Court TV.

The cable network's producers say they have no plans to broadcast Grigsby's case.

Grigsby just might round up a few students to take the stand for him. Many children who visit the shop to buy candy or play video games say the man they call "Pops" is a good, kind man.

"He don't hurt nobody," said Patrick Gillens, a 10th-grader at the high school nearby. And if he hit the girl, she must have deserved it, Gillens said.

Even among members of the same family, however, Grigsby's actions are debatable.

"She's lucky that's all she got was a whupping with a belt," said Sandy Joseph, a 23-year-old Haitian-American mother. "I'm sorry but these kids now, they're rude."

But Joseph's cousin, Nancy Joseph, said she would never hit her two children, much less someone else's child.

"Kids need to be disciplined, not spanked," she said.


Diana Marrero can be reached at dmarrero@sun-sentinel.com or 305-810-5005.

Copyright © 2003, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
What do you think of spanking as a form of discipline? I know I was spanked as a small child (not beat) and I grew up and turned out OK. As a matter of fact I received very few spankings after age 6 and none that I remember after about age 8 as I knew what the acceptable behavior was by then. I think that a spanking when appropriate in the formative years is very helpful as kids at that age are not adults and do not think logically or reason as adults. I know in the animal kingdom all offspring are 'spanked ' to teach them correct behavior. Are we as parents ignoring our obligation to teach our children the correct behavior because we put too much credence in the belief that children are just small adults and can reason as an adult would.

[wazman]

I was only spanked once as a child, but it taught me never to do what caused the spanking again.

Of course, a few months later, my parents learned that I did what I did because of a food allergy and not because of disobedience, and then they felt bad...

But we don't spank our daughter, and I for one don't intend to. We try to do everything we can to teach her the right way to behave without resorting to this.

But for a shopkeeper to do this to someone is wrong. It's not punishment or discipline - this was assualt, plain and simple. So the girl sassed him. It doesn't mean he can attack her.

[Raedwulf]

Ah the good old days...
When you acted like that sweet little thang in school, you could expect to be sent to the office and disciplined, then when the sweet thang got home, her parents had already been notified, and she got it again(just to enforce the lesson) teachers and parents working together to impress on the younguns that bad behaviour wasn't to be tolerated
Policeman were called sir/ma'am or officer

Darn right I support spanking, a smack on the hand or on the butt is all that's needed
Using the belt on her muight have been extreme, especially since it wasn't his kid, but that didn't stop teachers from using a ruler(and as a kid, I never thought about the difference, I just knew it was wrong... I escaped unscathed from our school system :))

[Orangepeel]

Our princpal in Grade School had a paddle on his desk at all times.

I can remember how we would taunt each other to peek in to prove it was true :D.

For the majority of the school population, just the stories about the paddle we enough to keep most kids in line. But for those who were just naughty by nature it didn't have much of an effect on them :eek:!

[Raedwulf]

I remember a time back in Junior High, our principal (a know hard-liner) came into shop class, grabbed one of the known bad eggs and gave him a swift kick on the backside, seems young laddie was hanging around IN the girl's washroom, in one of the stalls(he wasn't doing his 'business' either)

The principal also had a technique for giving the strap, he'd have the person's back to the wall, and hand straight out... try and move your hand out of the way in that position, all he had to do was stop your hand from moving downward

[eire1274]

I'm a relic from the last days of nuns teaching being the norm in school. The ruler on the knuckles was a fact of life.

I've since been in a teaching role in public junior high and high school. I'm not a teacher, but I "taught" as a teacher's aid a number of computer career related subjects in the Iowa Public School system. All I can say is that it was a schock to me to see how different it is from when I was at the same grade(s) in the 80's. Purely shocking.

Granted, especially in the 11th and 12th grade pre-Cisco networking classes, it was a different story because these kids were learning skills that could land them well-paying jobs just out of high school, but the more general (non-career-placement) classes were just chaos.

I'll say something simple: I was spanked as a child by my parents, and as part of my discipline I learned to respect all adults appropriately. I was "spanked" in later life by an old-school Japanese martial arts instructor, and I learned that just because I was now legally an adult, I still had to show respect.

My two boys are just about 1 year apart in age. They are the unholy duo. If I didn't believe in spanking, I don't think there would be any real control over their rampaging. I reserve spanking for extremes, and generally use time-out, but there are some times when time spent in the corner is spent planning the next crime!

In the situation described in the article above, I do not think that it was justified, however. The girl did need a good "whupping" no doubt, but I think he would have done better to call the police for the child's assault (and yes, throwing the coins with intent to hit him was assault) and hopefully wake up the parents when they had to go to the police station to pick her up.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by bejohnson
What do you think of spanking as a form of discipline? I know I was spanked as a small child (not beat) and I grew up and turned out OK. As a matter of fact I received very few spankings after age 6 and none that I remember after about age 8 as I knew what the acceptable behavior was by then. I think that a spanking when appropriate in the formative years is very helpful as kids at that age are not adults and do not think logically or reason as adults. I know in the animal kingdom all offspring are 'spanked ' to teach them correct behavior. Are we as parents ignoring our obligation to teach our children the correct behavior because we put too much credence in the belief that children are just small adults and can reason as an adult would.

Spanking is being slowly proven through psychology research, that it is a detriment to raising a child not an assett.

I, personally, do not believe in spanking as a form of punishment. I will not use it even with Ginger. Positive reinforcement is a much more effective and long term solution than negative reinforcement will ever be.

Although, I will not ever have childeren so it's kind of a mute point.

[eire1274]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
Spanking is being slowly proven through psychology research, that it is a detriment to raising a child not an assett.
I'd rephrase that there are groups who are trying to prove it as a detriment.

The best behaved children I grew up with were spanked by their parents. In all my years, I have only come across one abusive situation (and no, it was not my family). All of these well-behaved, respectful children have grown up to be more or less successful adults (by success I don't mean in money, I mean simply they are capable, balanced human beings). Those who will spank their children if needed have remarkably better behaved and better adjusted children than those that don't (on average).

Just my observations.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by eire1274
I'd rephrase that there are groups who are trying to prove it as a detriment.

The best behaved children I grew up with were spanked by their parents. In all my years, I have only come across one abusive situation (and no, it was not my family). All of these well-behaved, respectful children have grown up to be more or less successful adults (by success I don't mean in money, I mean simply they are capable, balanced human beings). Those who will spank their children if needed have remarkably better behaved and better adjusted children than those that don't (on average).

Just my observations.

By spanking you are using fear to influence the child. For example, the child is fearful of receiving the spanking, therefore, the child is obedient. When the child is spanked, then the fear is reinforced through pain.

The downside to this is, you cannot control the fear or how it is directed. It is being shown that childeren that are spanked have a higher tendancy to fear their parents (not respect, although it might seem that way), have more social issues, and relationship issues later down the road.

Positive reinforcement is proven to work much more effectively than negative reinforcement. This is simply because the parents are not using fear and pain as the control. The problem with positive reinforcement is most parents are not using it correctly because they were never taught how to properly impliment it. When not properly used, positive reinforcement will fail and parents become dismayed.

[getit29]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
The problem with positive reinforcement is most parents are not using it correctly because they were never taught how to properly impliment it. When not properly used, positive reinforcement will fail and parents become dismayed.
And they wonder why kids nowadays have no respect for others
and do not know right from wrong. Back in my younger days as
a kid growing up we all had respect for others and we knowed
what was right and what was wrong because if we did something
that was wrong or we were disrespectful to anyone we got our
little butts busted for it. I could just look at my dad the wrong way
and off came the belt but it made me what I am today I have the
utmost respect for others and I know what is right from wrong.
Yes I used to think that my dad was pretty harsh on me as a kid
and didn't care anything about me but he taught me to be a good
person in latter life and for that I will always be thankful.
In school they would take us to the office and the principle would
take a paddle to our butts and then when we got home we'd
get another one but after once or twice you learned to stay out
of trouble in school. Now days they are not allowed to even say
hardly anything to the kids let alone punish them and everybody
wonders why things like Columbine happens. People wake up
and smell the coffee it is the lack of punishment that the kids are
they way they are now days because they know that they can
get away with anything and not suffer any consequences for their
actions. Back when I was in school we said the Pledge Of Allegiance
every morning and we knew what the 10 Commandments meant
because people cared about the kids back then. The school system
now days just herds the kids through school like cattle to slaughter
a lot of them can not even spell or count change back to you after
they graduate high school. My friends daughter and another friends
son both graduated from high school and they have a hard time
reading and writing and they both work at fast food joints around
here and neither one can hardly count change from a dollar but
yet they gave them both high school diplomas just backs up what
I'm saying.
Okay I know some of you are going to say I'm crazy for believing
the kids needs to have a little fear put in them and to feel a little
pain but they will be better people latter on in life......... so let the
bashing on me begin and I can then show you that I can respect
your opinion and have great respect for you from what I was taught
as a kid.:thumb

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by getit29
And they wonder why kids nowadays have no respect for others
and do not know right from wrong. Back in my younger days as
a kid growing up we all had respect for others and we knowed
what was right and what was wrong because if we did something
that was wrong or we were disrespectful to anyone we got our
little butts busted for it. I could just look at my dad the wrong way
and off came the belt but it made me what I am today I have the
utmost respect for others and I know what is right from wrong.
Yes I used to think that my dad was pretty harsh on me as a kid
and didn't care anything about me but he taught me to be a good
person in latter life and for that I will always be thankful.
In school they would take us to the office and the principle would
take a paddle to our butts and then when we got home we'd
get another one but after once or twice you learned to stay out
of trouble in school. Now days they are not allowed to even say
hardly anything to the kids let alone punish them and everybody
wonders why things like Columbine happens. People wake up
and smell the coffee it is the lack of punishment that the kids are
they way they are now days because they know that they can
get away with anything and not suffer any consequences for their
actions. Back when I was in school we said the Pledge Of Allegiance
every morning and we knew what the 10 Commandments meant
because people cared about the kids back then. The school system
now days just herds the kids through school like cattle to slaughter
a lot of them can not even spell or count change back to you after
they graduate high school. My friends daughter and another friends
son both graduated from high school and they have a hard time
reading and writing and they both work at fast food joints around
here and neither one can hardly count change from a dollar but
yet they gave them both high school diplomas just backs up what
I'm saying.
Okay I know some of you are going to say I'm crazy for believing
the kids needs to have a little fear put in them and to feel a little
pain but they will be better people latter on in life......... so let the
bashing on me begin and I can then show you that I can respect
your opinion and have great respect for you from what I was taught
as a kid.:thumb



It's not what the schools are not doing.

It's not what the government is not doing.

It IS what the parents are NOT doing.

Now days I can walk into any bar at any time in the evening and find parents in the bar with their kids, flirting with the guys while drinking on a weeknight. I can do this 7 days a week. I can take you to the campuses that I work at and show you proof of why the kids are the way they are. Believe me, this is one subject I can go off on. I see it first hand, every day I'm at work.

It has absolutely nothing to do with spanking or positive reinforcement.

It is because the kids are growing up with out any parenting. When kids are allowed to run free without any guidance, then you end up with uneducated childeren that become society's problems. It is an extremely sad, sad story.

This thread was on the subject of spanking. We can easily veer off topic here and I do not wish to do that...even though this is a very good debate topic. If you wish to have my full opinions and facts on that topic, feel free to start another thread. As for spanking, no, I don't feel hitting a child for anything (other than self defense) is appropriate. :)

[eire1274]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
By spanking you are using fear to influence the child. For example, the child is fearful of receiving the spanking, therefore, the child is obedient. When the child is spanked, then the fear is reinforced through pain.
Oh, so glad you understand! Yes, and when they grow up, they don't commit crimes because they fear going to jail.

Everything in life is a matter of fear. Man (or woman) is a fear-directed, instinctual creature. Fear is the single greatest motivator in all of our lives on a subconscious level. We keep our terrible jobs because we fear starvation and homelessness!

The downside to this is, you cannot control the fear or how it is directed. It is being shown that childeren that are spanked have a higher tendancy to fear their parents (not respect, although it might seem that way), have more social issues, and relationship issues later down the road.
You can control how the fear is directed. It is shown that SOME children have a higher tendancy to feat their parents.

I was spanked as a child. I do not fear my father, though I do fear his disapproval of my actions. There is a difference. Taking the lessons I learned from him and applying them towards my children, I do not beat my children. The pain of a single swat is an extreme disciplinary action, and when that rare "spanking" does happen, it's impact is not the pain itself but the fact that Dad (me) was driven to this point. My children do not fear me; I invite you to come on over some time and spend an afternoon in my living room, and observe... I warn you, however, that after spending 2 hours or more consecutively in our home, the boys will either ask you politely to leave or (more likely, as they love just about everyone) will nominate you an honorary family member and ask you if you intend to spend the night (the concept that sleepovers, excluding one of their uncles crashing on the couch for a night, is restricted to folks their age just hasn't sunk in).

Positive reinforcement is proven to work much more effectively than negative reinforcement.
Like anything, positive and negative reinforcement is required in balance. All positive reinforcement alone does is create a child who thinks that they can be bad and then do a good thing for a bit of praise to make things all better.

It's not what the schools are not doing.

It's not what the government is not doing.

It IS what the parents are NOT doing.

It is because the kids are growing up with out any parenting. When kids are allowed to run free without any guidance, then you end up with uneducated childeren that become society's problems. It is an extremely sad, sad story.

It is what the parents are not doing, I agree. However, I will state for the record that I've seen a lot of "society's problems" who were quite educated and well off, and those who are not eductated at all and are some of society's greatest assets.

[getit29]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
It is because the kids are growing up with out any parenting. When kids are allowed to run free without any guidance, then you end up with uneducated childeren that become society's problems. It is an extremely sad, sad story.

This thread was on the subject of spanking. We can easily veer off topic here and I do not wish to do that...even though this is a very good debate topic. If you wish to have my full opinions and facts on that topic, feel free to start another thread. As for spanking, no, I don't feel hitting a child for anything (other than self defense) is appropriate. :)
Artcwolf, I agree with you on the part about the parenting part
yes it is a sad fact that a lot of parents do not show any kind of
guidance to their children but I still have to say that a (*little*)
with emphasis on *little* tough love with a spanking when it is
absolutely necessary. I do not believe in spanking a child every
time he or she does a little something wrong but they should
know that they run the risk of a spanking and maybe they would
stop and think twice before going and doing something wrong.
I have only given one (1) spanking to a kid in my lifetime and it
was with permission from my brother to do so if necessary it was
my nephew. He used to be very unruly around me always talking
back and acting up until one day he pushed my niece, his sister
out of a chair and broke her tooth. I gave him a couple of whacks
on the butt and from that day on he has treated me with the
utmost respect and he has grown up to be quite nice to everyone
around him. So I have to say yes to a spanking every now and
then but like I said (only) when absolutely necessary when nothing
else works. Now I know everyone will not agree with that but it
is their responsibility to discipline their children in their own way
what ever way they choose to do so. I'm not trying to tell anyone
that they should use a spanking to discipline their children it is up
to the parents to decide what is best.

[neutralz]

no i do not advocate spanking. wasnt spanked before too.

some people say spare the rod and spoil the child, but if you dont spare the rod, you will also spoil the child (physical injury, trauma etc)

[wazman]

Originally posted by eire1274
Oh, so glad you understand! Yes, and when they grow up, they don't commit crimes because they fear going to jail.


No, I don't commit crimes because my parents did an excellent job (by word and by example) of right and wrong.

True, I don't want to go to jail. But I don't commit crimes because I know that's wrong, and I don't want to do wrong. Not because I fear the consequences. I just choose to live the right way.

In the case of the girl in the topic, though - as I said, whatever punishment the parents, or the police, should have given her, for a stranger to grab a girl and start spanking her is assault and frankly a little scary. What's that guy going to do the next time (if there is a next time)? You don't just grab someone off the street, out of their car, or whatever, and start beating on them, just because you got pissed off by them. You give them the finger and get on with your life. To do otherwise is a sign of a maladjusted personality.

[Raedwulf]

I'm kinda seeing a trend here... the younger kids raised by the people who read Dr Spock, all seem to be against spanking
Those of us whose parents were older, and didn't believe in raising their kids from a book, believe in it

Back in the day, a teacher was never afraid to go to school, no kid ever had a weapon... selling drugs on school grounds was never a problem, the worst thing a kid had to worry about was the local bully stealing your lunch money
These days, well... kids swearing at teachers, drugs problems in the schools(heck, forget about in the grounds), knives, guns other weapons stored in lockers
... now someone tell me... you think the odd strap might not have helped curb some of this madness

btw, Dr Spock admitted before he died, he was wrong.
My kids will get a spank if they misbehave.

If my daughter pulls the drawer on herself and gets hurt, I'm spared giving her a spank, maybe eventually she'll learn not to climb on it

IF I go on a binge tonight and I ache tomorrow morning, eventually I'll learn not to drink so heavily

Oh yes, Pain is a good tool for learning, it works well when trying to reason with a child by talking isn't working

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by Raedwulf
I'm kinda seeing a trend here... the younger kids raised by the people who read Dr Spock, all seem to be against spanking
Those of us whose parents were older, and didn't believe in raising their kids from a book, believe in it

What trend? I'm not so young and got my f-ing ass busted when I was young and I still do not believe in striking a child.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by eire1274
Oh, so glad you understand! Yes, and when they grow up, they don't commit crimes because they fear going to jail.

*middle finger raised* You are stating that it is impossible to teach a child to not be violent by striking them?!? The middle finger was for your smart assed reply.

Everything in life is a matter of fear. Man (or woman) is a fear-directed, instinctual creature. Fear is the single greatest motivator in all of our lives on a subconscious level. We keep our terrible jobs because we fear starvation and homelessness!

If you fear everything around you, you must live a miserable existance. That is not how anyone should go through life.


You can control how the fear is directed.

No, that is an illusion. Sometimes it works in your favor, sometimes it does not.


All positive reinforcement alone does is create a child who thinks that they can be bad and then do a good thing for a bit of praise to make things all better.

This is inaccurate. The reason it seems this way is most parents do not use positive reinforcement properly because they were never taught how. Most parents were taught negative reinforcement.

I think that there may be some confusion here, thinking that there are no ways to show a child that they have done wrong. That is not true. It is just not done by striking the child.



However, I will state for the record that I've seen a lot of "society's problems" who were quite educated and well off, and those who are not eductated at all and are some of society's greatest assets.

Unless we all have been living in a cave, I think all of us should be able to show some examples of that. :)

[eire1274]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
*middle finger raised*
Uncalled for. This was previously a (heated) debate between adults. You should have been spanked more as a child, apparently.

End of discussion, I'm out.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by eire1274
Uncalled for. This was previously a (heated) debate between adults. You should have been spanked more as a child, apparently.

End of discussion, I'm out.

Heated yes, necessary for your smart aleck remark, no.

I should have refrained myself better, but as most people do, I lost a little of my temper. For that I apologize.

However, once again, your reply was derogatory.

I'm going to leave it at that.

getit29 does not agree with my point of view, either; however, he has thoughtfully and respectfully replied. I respect his views, I also would have respected yours, if they had been presented differently.

[Raedwulf]

Licensing parents would be a good step

the curriculum

You attend a course on first aid, (home delivery might be useful)
Child behaviour 101
Toilet training 101
Ettiquete 101
Discipline 101
spanking 201(needs Discipline 101 as a prerequisite)

You attend all that... then you're allowed to have a child, because obviously if you went to the trouble to attend, you're also responsoible enough to raise a responsible child

[XxFaeryOnFirexX]

I feel that there is no reason for it and I for one will not do it to my children. There are many other suitable ways of doing things.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by Raedwulf
Licensing parents would be a good step

the curriculum

You attend a course on first aid, (home delivery might be useful)
Child behaviour 101
Toilet training 101
Ettiquete 101
Discipline 101
spanking 201(needs Discipline 101 as a prerequisite)

You attend all that... then you're allowed to have a child, because obviously if you went to the trouble to attend, you're also responsoible enough to raise a responsible child

I agree with you 100%. All parents should be required to get a license prior to having childeren.

[getit29]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
I agree with you 100%. All parents should be required to get a license prior to having childeren.
Artc, this I can agree with you and Raedwulf 150% on, it's too bad a child doesn't
come with an owners manual like a new car does that will tell you how to make things
run smoothly and how to maintain the child in the best way for him or her. Yes I think
there should be a class that theaches parents to be, a few of the fundamentals of
parenting before they are allowed to have children.:thumb

[Raedwulf]

I only mention a couple basics

'Money doesn't grow on trees 101' would be good addition
How not to spoil your brat 101(also a pre req to spanking 201)

I'm trying to come up with a clever/short description on 'get the heck outside and play, you've spent enough time on that damn PS2/N64/Gamecube/Xbox/Gameboy
That for me is the biggest battle I have these days with step-son... I'd give him a good smack but he's not my own, though Lady C is getting a bit more strict on that score

Making rules is Black and White 101(there is no bartering, begging etc... you want to try for 2 weeks?) This for me is beginning to work on step son

You will not talk back 101, you don't like it, too bad, quit your griping and go to your room

[Maro]

Excuse me for the question, but how much spanking = an a$s whuppin'?

A sharp smack can be useful but you dad getting medievil defeats the object. and is wrong.

I am 28 and was spanked - I even had my mouth washed out once for swearing. What has this done for me?

If you look up my "Scarce" thread, it proves that being spanked doesn't prevent me from lavishing all I can on my Mum - she was the spanker.

I have respect for all my elders and disgust for all the little brats I see around me. The world is a bad enough place as it is without people making it worse by bad parenting.

:Sigh :Sigh

[CyberGuy]

Personally I dont believe in beating children, particularly my own.

The reason is that there is no point where one can draw the line between simple punishment and cruelty. Who makes that decision? You? Me? Often a physically abusive parent (I'm not talking about the sicko sexual abusers here) does not realize they are causing real damage to their children.

There are other ways of teaching the difference between right and wrong. One of these is by understanding your kids enough to know out what they like and what they dont, and deny them the things they like. They have TV and and a game console in their room? A good punishment would be to remove the TV for a month (vid games dont work too good without one of these). Grades slipping? No LAN party for you! Respect through insight and relating to your kids works far better than respect-through-fear approaches. Oh, and always make sure they understand why they are being punished. Punishment in and of itself does not teach anything. But if you take away priviledges and explain to them why, they will learn what needs to be done to avoid future punishments. Also you can usually get a kid to do what you want by offering something they want in return (clean out the garage and cut the grass and I'll get you Doom3 when it comes out).

My own daughter is now 17 and going to university next year with grades in the low-mid 90s. She currently has her black belt in TaeKwon Do, is very good at playing piano and has a healthy peer respect for her parents and treats us as friends rather than people to be obeyed. We have never had to resort to any kind of physical action to punish her. These techniques have served us amazingly well (she got her patience and dicipline from her martial arts training - I heartily recommend it for parents of energetic or hyper kids).

[Vector Man]

I was spanked for the most part of my life. Tho I hated being spanked I think it made me a more better person.

Kids nowadays are put on time out too much. That is total crap.

I know I don't break the law or anything for fear that I may have to pay a ticket, lose my car or go to jail. I am an outstanding citizen, thanx for beating me mom.

[ChKFlores]

Originally posted by CyberGuy
Personally I dont believe in beating children, particularly my own.

The reason is that there is no point where one can draw the line between simple punishment and cruelty. Who makes that decision? You? Me? Often a physically abusive parent (I'm not talking about the sicko sexual abusers here) does not realize they are causing real damage to their children.

There are other ways of teaching the difference between right and wrong. One of these is by understanding your kids enough to know out what they like and what they dont, and deny them the things they like. They have TV and and a game console in their room? A good punishment would be to remove the TV for a month (vid games dont work too good without one of these). Grades slipping? No LAN party for you! Respect through insight and relating to your kids works far better than respect-through-fear approaches. Oh, and always make sure they understand why they are being punished. Punishment in and of itself does not teach anything. But if you take away priviledges and explain to them why, they will learn what needs to be done to avoid future punishments. Also you can usually get a kid to do what you want by offering something they want in return (clean out the garage and cut the grass and I'll get you Doom3 when it comes out).

My own daughter is now 17 and going to university next year with grades in the low-mid 90s. She currently has her black belt in TaeKwon Do, is very good at playing piano and has a healthy peer respect for her parents and treats us as friends rather than people to be obeyed. We have never had to resort to any kind of physical action to punish her. These techniques have served us amazingly well (she got her patience and dicipline from her martial arts training - I heartily recommend it for parents of energetic or hyper kids).

Well said and great point. Aloha and welcome! :sun_smile

[blpeterson]

My siblings and I were spanked in our formative years. After about five years old we knew the difference between right and wrong. A lot of people, and this includes child psychiatrist, make a mistaken assumption that small children reason as an adult would. While reasoning develops at an early age part of the development of those reasoning powers is knowing the difference between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. In the very young (6 to 12 months up until about 5 or 6) the best way to instill this knowledge is the use of BOTH positive and negative reinforcement. You reward good behavior and bad behavior is first punished with non-corporal means. If the bad behavior continues then a spanking is called for.

None of my siblings or myself was ever abused or beaten but we did get some intense spankings, which we always deserved. I was very precocious at times and I got more than my share because I was hard headed and stubborn. (Don't you say a word, Ed. :D ) If we have children Ed and I both will use the method above. The important thing with discipline is that both parents have to agree and be on the same page. If you are not the kids will play one parent against the other. I know, I tried and it resulted in probably the worst spanking I ever received because my mom and my dad both spanked me.:)

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by blpeterson
(Don't you say a word, Ed. :D )

Moi? /me whistles aimlessly. :rofl2

[Gondlof01]

Ihave never spanked my son ! and i never will, by spanking your child you are commiting a crime yourself, and spanking will only bring fear and hatered into your child!
I was spanked as little but that dont give me any good reason to do the same thing to my child just cause i never commited any crimes!

[imtim83]

Anyone who spanks their child even once should go to jail.

[mrman_3k]

Originally posted by Gondlof01
Ihave never spanked my son ! and i never will, by spanking your child you are commiting a crime yourself, and spanking will only bring fear and hatered into your child!
I was spanked as little but that dont give me any good reason to do the same thing to my child just cause i never commited any crimes!

Exactly! Spanking is meant to put fear and respect into a child. Now there is a very fine line between spanking and beating. The point of spanking is to scare the child and not hurt them (of course there will be a moment of pain, but there is pain when you go sliding into 2nd base).

I was spanked as a child and can say that it was a blessing as it has taught be good behavior and respect for adults. Of course by the time I was 8 or so it didn't hurt and I just laughed so began the punshments of taking away things and privaleges. But back to spanking, even today as an adult, if my father gives me 'the look' it puts fear into me and I sure as hell listen to what he has to say.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by blpeterson
In the very young (6 to 12 months up until about 5 or 6) the best way to instill this knowledge is the use of BOTH positive and negative reinforcement. You reward good behavior and bad behavior is first punished with non-corporal means. If the bad behavior continues then a spanking is called for.


I disagree, respectfully.


Unfortunately, it's 5 am here and I've not been to bed yet. My brain is not functioning to respond with an intelligent response so I will try to remember to get back later today and give an appropriate answer.

[bejohnson]

Here is a n interesting article (http://www.nospank.net/journal.htm) from the June 9th, 2000 Wall Street Journal "Weekend Journal".
Spanking Makes a Comeback
Tired of Spoiling the Child, Parents Stop Sparing the Rod; Dr. Dobson vs. Dr. Spock
By Daniel Costello, "Weekend Journal," Wall Street Journal, June 9, 2000, p. W1


AT 21/2 YEARS OLD, Mairin Dugan is starting to get the upper hand in her household-but not the kind of upper hand she had in mind.
She throws her food across the kitchen, pitches tantrums when any one else touches "her" television and recently got up and marched out the door when asked to sit still at a holiday dinner. So how's her mom responding? With a firm swat on Mairin's backside.

"I know some people think it's awful," says Mairin's mom, Carla Dugan, an East Haven, Conn., homemaker. "But how many of them have a two-year-old?"

More than five decades after Dr Spock sent corporal punishment to the woodshed; spanking is making a comeback. A growing number of parents--many of whom were never spanked themselves-are shunning the experts, defying disapproving friends and neighbors, and giving their kids a slap on the bottom, the hand or the leg. Web sites popular with parents, such as iVillage.com and Oxygen.com, are filled with chat-room buzz from pro-spankers. Just last year, both Oklahoma and Nevada passed laws explicitly giving parents the right to spank their children. Even House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt last year admitted that he has spanked his three kids, noting that his mother disciplined him with a switch--and he turned out fine.

So why the return to tough love? Other methods simply don't work, frustrated parents say. Sondra Thompson, a stay-at-home mother of six in Corsicana, Texas, turned to spanking after bombing with such gentler tactics as "time outs" and stern lectures. One of the last straws: the day four-year-old Allesandra poured shaving cream and shampoo all over the bathroom, then rubbed lip stick on the upstairs carpet. "I hear people who talk about how awful spanking is," says Ms. Thompson. "Their kids are usually maniacs."

In a recent Harris poll, nearly 70% of respondents said they think young adults and children don't have as much discipline as they need. Meanwhile, with communities everywhere struggling to explain school shootings and other, teen crime, many are blaming lax parental control.

"Something has to be done and it has to be done at home," says Debbie Long, a mother from Rincon, Ga. Mrs. Long and her husband, Michael, started spanking their son, Kevin, when he was four even though both weren't spanked much as children. They only spank Kevin, now seven, occasionally-when he gets "sassy," says Mrs. Long.

While there are no definitive studies of how many parents spank, many pediatricians, psychologists and researchers say the numbers are on the rise. Kevin Ryan, director of the Center for the Advancement of Ethics and Character Development at Boston University, says parents are starting to reject the politically correct notion that children are too fragile to spank. That notion took hold after World War' II as Benjamin Spock, the influential pediatrician, began warning that corporal punishment can traumatize children and trigger more aggressive behavior. The "spare the rod, Spoil the child" theory got further pummeled in the permissive '60s and '70s and again in recent years amid growing attention to domestic violence. Some critics have even equated spanking with out-and-out abuse.
Nonsense says Judy Ussery of Savannah, Ga., who has tried-and failed-with everything from confiscating favorite toys to outright bribes. Although Ms. Ussery was never spanked as a child, she says her kids are a whole lot worse, than she was: "I got the child my mother wished on me."


Emerging Research

While academic thing on the subject has long been dominated by Dr. Spock's point of view, an emerging body of research suggests that spanking might not be such a bad thing after all. In one decade-long study, Diana Baumrind of the University of California-Berkeley found that parents who combined positive encouragement and a reasonable level of discipline--including spanking--had the best outcomes, as defined by rough measures of self-worth and personal achievement.

Robert Schwebel, a psychologist who hosts a popular parenting discussion group on iVillage.com, says about one-third of the people on his site openly support spanking, up considerably since the site began four years ago. The movement even has its own Dr. Spock: conservative evangelist James Dobson. His book, "The New Dare to Discipline," has sold more than three million copies since it was published in 1992.

Many parents continue to feel guilty about spanking. "I think it hurts me more than it hurts him," says Mrs. Long. Yet, of ten, the biggest deterrent to spanking isn't guilt, but community censure. Indeed, even when spanking was at its least fashionable, researchers say most parents spanked-only they did so less frequently, less firmly and out of public view.

Such outside pressures still exist, of course. Last fall, Mrs. Dugan of East Haven was shopping in the local grocery store when young Mairin decided to pull cereal boxes off the shelf. When she smacked her daughter's hand, she says, a woman standing nearby instantly chided her--and asked how Mrs. Dugan would like it if she were hit. Mrs. Dugan fumed. "I told her it wasn't her business to tell me how to raise my child."


Tell It to the Judge

Donald Cobble, a minister in Woburn, Mass., attracted national attention last year after he was arrested for hitting his child with a belt. Mr. Cobble's son had told a teacher about the incident. "The ordeal was hell," says Mr. Cobble, but the State Supreme Court threw the case out, finding no evidence of abuse, he says.

Similarly, in 1995, Boston police arrested a department store Santa Claus for spanking a child who kept yanking his beard. But the public ultimately wound up on his side: Not only did Santa get released in time to finish his holiday duties, supporters lined the streets to greet him.

Parents stress the need to draw a line between a light swat on the backside and physical abuse, and many say they are careful not to hit hard or often. And even spanking advocates urge parents not to spank children under 18 months, both because infants are so fragile and because they aren't old enough to appreciate why they are being punished. Similarly, many psychologists and pediatricians say spanking post-pubescent children just isn't effective.

Still, some parents and experts continue to believe that any spanking is not only humiliating but also harmful for children. In 1998, the American Academy of Pediatrics came out categorically opposed to physical discipline of any kind, although the group had supported it "in moderation" as recently as 1996. "The only thing spanking teaches is that I am bigger than you and I can hurt you," says Robin Ylitalo, a stay-at-home mom in Lakewood, Calif.

Ms. Ylitalo frequently goes online to many of the parenting Web sites and says she's surprised to see all the support for spanking. "I want to teach my kids more than that."

Christen Goertel, a Stamford, Conn. mother, faced the "to spank or not to spank" dilemma at a recent community picnic. Her three youngsters wouldn't sit still, a playful game of tag got out of hand and, when a child wouldn't share her fishingpole, the youngest girl went into a full-blown cry. For a moment, Mrs. Goertel says she was definitely tempted to spank the kids--but something stopped her.

The reason: The picnic was in honor of National Spank Out Day, an anti-spanking program sponsored by a non-profit group. "Oh, we spank," Mrs. Goertel confesses, taking a pause from corralling her children during the picnic. "We just came to get out of the house."

Address letters to: The Editor, Weekend Journal, 200 Liberty Street, New York, NY 10281

Child rearing as all other things in our world is a matter of principles and choices. A parent must love, respect and be honest with a child. The child must do the same for the parent. As Brandi stated, in the formative years of a child's behavior, the child does not have the reasoning power of an adult. This assumption was one of the glaring problems with Dr. Spock and his followers. It is the responsibility of the parent to teach the child to reason. This is best done by rewarding or praising the child when he does something good or behaves and disciplining the child when he is bad or does something wrong. Both the reward and the punishment must be proportional to the deed.

Punishment should always be non-corporal at first if the child is old enough to understand the spoken language. Very young children learn only by stimuli. I.e. a toddler that touches a hot stove will burn itself. This is a form of education. The toddler learns that touching a hot stove will result in pain and not do it again. If a toddler has a behavior problem sometimes a simple swat on the butt is all it takes to remedy the problem.

In children that are talking, verbal warnings with explanations should be made first. If those do not work then time-outs or loss of privileges or favorite things should be tried. If that doesn't work a spanking is called for. There is a difference between spanking and beating. A spanking is not intended to introduce pain so much as it is intended to get the attention of the child. Spanking should never be done if the adult is mad to the point of losing his or her temper. A spanking should never be done to humiliate the child in front of his or her friends. Discipline should be discussed in private. If a spanking is given, it should be followed up with an explanation why the parent spanked the child and the events that led to the spanking.

A child must never believe that he or she has the upper hand over the parent. The parent is the one that is raising the child not vice-versa.

Bottom line is spanking should never be the first resort in a discipline problem, but it should not be ruled out either. Raising a child requires a degree of common sense. It's a sad commentary on our world today that some young adults lack that commodity. It's a shame that children do not come with an instruction book.:)

[splashtech]

Originally posted by bejohnson
It's a shame that children do not come with an instruction book.:)

Imagine the pain for the mother giving birth to a child and an instruction book. :lmao :rofl2

But anyway, I have been watching this thread with interest. I don't really know what my opinion on this matter is...... interesting to see other people's though.

[wazman]

Originally posted by splashtech
Imagine the pain for the mother giving birth to a child and an instruction book. :lmao :rofl2

Maybe they could come in with a card you could send in for the book?