Are Cellphones Safe

[bejohnson]

Here is a link (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/medicine/article/0,12543,573349,00.html) to another story about brain damage from cellphone radiation exposure. This time though the evidence seems conclusive. It will be interesting to see if any other studies corroborate the findings.

[Artcwolf]

Interesting....I wonder what will become of the outcome.

I've always suspected that cell phones were not healthy; however, what about cordless phones? Esp. the 2.4 GHz models?

I hope some conclusive evidence comes out of this. What is scary is how many businesses will be affected if it is proven that cell phone usage is dangerous to your health.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
Interesting....I wonder what will become of the outcome.

I've always suspected that cell phones were not healthy; however, what about cordless phones? Esp. the 2.4 GHz models?

I hope some conclusive evidence comes out of this. What is scary is how many businesses will be affected if it is proven that cell phone usage is dangerous to your health.

I worked for Motorola in the early '70s and at that time they stopped placing the 450 MHz Handie Talkie antenna on the remote microphone because of RF exposure to the brain. Twenty-five years later they are back up there. I think every generation of engineers totally forgets some of the knowledge base and has to learn again.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by bejohnson
I worked for Motorola in the early '70s and at that time they stopped placing the 450 MHz Handie Talkie antenna on the remote microphone because of RF exposure to the brain. Twenty-five years later they are back up there. I think every generation of engineers totally forgets some of the knowledge base and has to learn again.

Does not surprise me; however, it's not just that it's forgotten...greed takes over. Sales become more important than safety.

I have been worried about the 2.4 GHz phones since that is also the same frequency that our microwaves cook food with. Now they also have the new 5.8 GHz phones rolling onto the market.

Someone better come up with some conclusive evidence fast before we have some serious health care costs and law suits flying round.

[egarrard]

How many radio engineers, television engineers, or hams do you know that got cancer in some part of their body from their abnormal exposure toRF radiation? Any military personnel affected by the radiation thay are around? I think it's more likely that more people will die from answering the phone in the wrong place, than from holding it next to their heads.

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by egarrard
How many radio engineers, television engineers, or hams do you know that got cancer in some part of their body from their abnormal exposure toRF radiation? Any military personnel affected by the radiation thay are around? I think it's more likely that more people will die from answering the phone in the wrong place, than from holding it next to their heads.

Problem is those people don't usually stand around for hours with their heads directly in contact with the antenna's of those devices.

This is where the cell phones cause their controversy. If you use a headset you should be o.k. but I know that I don't have a headset on me at all times. Nor is it convienient to use one all the time.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by egarrard
How many radio engineers, television engineers, or hams do you know that got cancer in some part of their body from their abnormal exposure toRF radiation? Any military personnel affected by the radiation thay are around? I think it's more likely that more people will die from answering the phone in the wrong place, than from holding it next to their heads.

Actually Ed there is a higher than normal incidence of cancer in some of the older broadcast engineers and radar operators from a couple of generations ago. I've lost several broadcasting friends to cancer. There is also a high incidence of cataracts in the engineers that deal with the higher-powered high frequency transmitters. That is one of the reasons why the FCC through the Office of Science and Technology bulletin OST-65 established radiation exposure limits that apply to all radio equipment including Amateur Radio.

BTW The Office of Science and Technology is now known as the Office of Engineering Technology if you want to search for the document.

[Teddray]

Originally posted by bejohnson
I worked for Motorola in the early '70s and at that time they stopped placing the 450 MHz Handie Talkie antenna on the remote microphone because of RF exposure to the brain. Twenty-five years later they are back up there. I think every generation of engineers totally forgets some of the knowledge base and has to learn again.

A common excuse for this is to say something along the lines of "the level from the phone is so dismal that an xray or a cat scan is MANY times greater, and people dont complain about those." I recently had to get tested and my level is a rem above what it should be, factoring in the scans I had a year ago at a hospital after being injured and what I was exposed to while monitoring some of the radiological samples at my last school. Where did it come from? beats me.... is my computer monitor or a phone a good bet? probably. Does it bother me? yes :(

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Teddray
A common excuse for this is to say something along the lines of "the level from the phone is so dismal that an xray or a cat scan is MANY times greater, and people dont complain about those." I recently had to get tested and my level is a rem above what it should be, factoring in the scans I had a year ago at a hospital after being injured and what I was exposed to while monitoring some of the radiological samples at my last school. Where did it come from? beats me.... is my computer monitor or a phone a good bet? probably. Does it bother me? yes :(

RF radiation is different from nuclear or X-ray radiation. RF radiation is a non-ionizing radiation where as nuclear radiation or X-ray radiation is ionizing. What this means is ionizing radiation actually changes the sub atomic structure of the atoms that make up the body by either adding or subtracting atomic particles to the atoms. Non-ionizing radiation excites the molecules of water in the body to produce heat. The heat is from the friction of the molecules vibrating at the frequency of the applied RF. Non-ionizing radiation is how a microwave oven works. Too much exposure to RF can actually start to cook the brain and other organs.

[Teddray]

Originally posted by bejohnson
RF radiation is different from nuclear or X-ray radiation. RF radiation is a non-ionizing radiation where as nuclear radiation or X-ray radiation is ionizing. What this means is ionizing radiation actually changes the sub atomic structure of the atoms that make up the body by either adding or subtracting atomic particles to the atoms. Non-ionizing radiation excites the molecules of water in the body to produce heat. The heat is from the friction of the molecules vibrating at the frequency of the applied RF. Non-ionizing radiation is how a microwave oven works. Too much exposure to RF can actually start to cook the brain and other organs.

Thanks for clearing that up. If that is how it is they are trying to pull a fast one on people =\ My level puzzles me though, They were very strict about how long we handled stuff and their estimate of what I should have was a bit generous. X-o One of my knucklehead coworkers would grab onto a sample and hold it in his hand while he stood there looking at it thinking about where he was supposed to put it. He got like a hundred rems in his right hand. But getting back on topic, at least they have proven that cell phones dont really cause huge random explosions at gas stations. I do have one question though, why are 5+ GHz phones necessary?

[egarrard]

Originally posted by bejohnson
RF radiation is different from nuclear or X-ray radiation. RF radiation is a non-ionizing radiation where as nuclear radiation or X-ray radiation is ionizing. What this means is ionizing radiation actually changes the sub atomic structure of the atoms that make up the body by either adding or subtracting atomic particles to the atoms. Non-ionizing radiation excites the molecules of water in the body to produce heat. The heat is from the friction of the molecules vibrating at the frequency of the applied RF. Non-ionizing radiation is how a microwave oven works. Too much exposure to RF can actually start to cook the brain and other organs. So cell phones get women hot?? :What the

[Teddray]

Originally posted by egarrard
So cell phones get women hot?? :What the

LOL :spin So thats a good thing, right?

[tpenguin]

While it is obvious that the rats's brains were damaged during this study (and presumably from microwave radiation), not many details are given about the experiment. It said the rats were exposed to cell-phone-frequency radiation of varying intensity for 2 hours, but it doesn't say the exact level of signal power. This could range from about .1W to 1.5W for a modern digital cell phone depending signal quality. It also doesn't specify if the cell phones had been modified to provide an extra signal boost. Lastly, while I don't doubt that even a source of less than a watt of microwave radiation can cause tissue damage if held very close to the body, It makes sense to point out the anatomical differences between humans and rats. Our Skulls are many times thicker, and probably more dense as well. The calcium in bone is effective at reflecting/absorbing a good amount of radiation.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that after having many CT scans and x-rays of my head during my lifetime, albeit only 20 years, spending large amounts of time every day in front of a computer monitor, using only cordless phones at home, and using a cellphone (although not much), the two MRI's I've had done on my brain for completely different reasons show that it is perfectly healthy. There is not even the slightest sign of damage from any cause. This is regardless of the fact that my average daily EMR exposure is probably significantly higher than the normal person's even though I don't use my cell phone all that often. In order for me to be conviced that cell phones can cause brain damage in humans, They are going to have to perform experiments with a real (empty) human skull, and measure the actual percentage of a cell-phone signal actually penetrates it.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by tpenguin
While it is obvious that the rats's brains were damaged during this study (and presumably from microwave radiation), not many details are given about the experiment. It said the rats were exposed to cell-phone-frequency radiation of varying intensity for 2 hours, but it doesn't say the exact level of signal power. This could range from about .1W to 1.5W for a modern digital cell phone depending signal quality. It also doesn't specify if the cell phones had been modified to provide an extra signal boost. Lastly, while I don't doubt that even a source of less than a watt of microwave radiation can cause tissue damage if held very close to the body, It makes sense to point out the anatomical differences between humans and rats. Our Skulls are many times thicker, and probably more dense as well. The calcium in bone is effective at reflecting/absorbing a good amount of radiation.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that after having many CT scans and x-rays of my head during my lifetime, albeit only 20 years, spending large amounts of time every day in front of a computer monitor, using only cordless phones at home, and using a cellphone (although not much), the two MRI's I've had done on my brain for completely different reasons show that it is perfectly healthy. There is not even the slightest sign of damage from any cause. This is regardless of the fact that my average daily EMR exposure is probably significantly higher than the normal person's even though I don't use my cell phone all that often. In order for me to be conviced that cell phones can cause brain damage in humans, They are going to have to perform experiments with a real (empty) human skull, and measure the actual percentage of a cell-phone signal actually penetrates it.

You are right on many points. The problem is as I alluded to in one of my earlier post, is that the interior skull measurements were made in the early '70s and that is why Motorola discontinued the antenna mounted at the shoulder. A rat skull is not as thick as a human's is so the test that you suggested should be made again to confirm or contradict the earlier data

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by egarrard
So cell phones get women hot?? :What the

Particularly if the vibrate.:jawsdown :lmao

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Teddray
I do have one question though, why are 5+ GHz phones necessary?

The number of channels available to the phone is limited so the manufactures are constantly expanding into frequencies that were previously to expensive to use until the technology brought the price of the equipment down.

The radio spectrum is very crowded now. One of these days it will max out.

[MGE]

I've heard all these reports on how cell phones can be damaging to your health, but I don't think its the cell phones you should be worrying about.

A cell phone, if its digital or not, is basically a 2 channel radio, with a fancy front end.
The average transmitting power is usually about 1 watt, if that.
Obviously, if you go to far from a cell transmitter, the phone switchs to the nearest transmitter mast.
These masts aren't that far apart, but they are what you should worry about, as they carry the real RF Juice.
Probably a few hundred Watts of RF.

And over here, they want to start putting more masts up, but right next to houses.

So, from the increase in masts, and the smaller the phones are getting these days, its one conclusion to assume that cell phone transceiver assembles are getting weaker, and the cell towers are getting stronger.
Bad combination, espically if they build them on top of schools.

And comparing a microwave to a cell phone isn't really fair, as a microwave is pumping out way more than 1 watt at what ever GHz.
More like 750+
You probably could cook an egg with a cell phone, provided you left the egg directly on top of the transceiver assembly (With the RF shielding removed), and made a phone call for about 24 hours, even then, I doubt it would be cooked properly, probably still raw on the inside.
And with the RF shielding removed, I doubt it would function properly enough to make a call.

[tpenguin]

Originally posted by bejohnson
The number of channels available to the phone is limited so the manufactures are constantly expanding into frequencies that were previously to expensive to use until the technology brought the price of the equipment down.

The radio spectrum is very crowded now. One of these days it will max out.

Well, we'll just have to start using gamma-ray cellphone transmitters. You won't lose your call even if you're in an elevator or driving through a tunnel. Of course, the only downside is that you wouldn't live long enough to get brain cancer. Hmmm...how about subspace cellphones?

[wazman]

I'll still use my phone... I don't care about the risk. I'm going to die anyway, so what's the difference how? One way's just as painful as the next.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by MGE
I've heard all these reports on how cell phones can be damaging to your health, but I don't think its the cell phones you should be worrying about.

A cell phone, if its digital or not, is basically a 2 channel radio, with a fancy front end.
The average transmitting power is usually about 1 watt, if that.
Obviously, if you go to far from a cell transmitter, the phone switchs to the nearest transmitter mast.
These masts aren't that far apart, but they are what you should worry about, as they carry the real RF Juice.
Probably a few hundred Watts of RF.

And over here, they want to start putting more masts up, but right next to houses.

So, from the increase in masts, and the smaller the phones are getting these days, its one conclusion to assume that cell phone transceiver assembles are getting weaker, and the cell towers are getting stronger.
Bad combination, espically if they build them on top of schools.

And comparing a microwave to a cell phone isn't really fair, as a microwave is pumping out way more than 1 watt at what ever GHz.
More like 750+
You probably could cook an egg with a cell phone, provided you left the egg directly on top of the transceiver assembly (With the RF shielding removed), and made a phone call for about 24 hours, even then, I doubt it would be cooked properly, probably still raw on the inside.
And with the RF shielding removed, I doubt it would function properly enough to make a call.

Actually a cellphone has hundreds of channels. The system computer assigns each site a group of channels and then switches the channels used as needed to equalize the loading on the system and to insure system reliability.

I wasn't comparing a cellphone to a microwave oven. I used the microwave oven as example of non-ionizing radiation and how that radiation heats material through the excitation of the molecules of water.

RF exposure limits are very low and can be lower than 1mw/cm² depending on the time of exposure and the frequency of the RF.

Here is a link to the F.C.C. web page that has the links to the OET-65 bulletin. (http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/bulletins/#65) Warning: this is a highly technical and lengthy document with three supplements and a public notice section. It will answer a lot of questions about RF exposure.

[egarrard]

Cell phone? I can't even afford a ggod wired one... :rofl2

[MGE]

When I said 2 channel, I meant, it only uses two channels at a time. (I am aware of the various methods different cell manufactures use.)
One for recieving voice, and one for transmitting voice.
Strictly speaking, voice isn't transmitted anymore, its encoded and sent as data. But anyway, I'm straying from the point.
I was trying to give a very very very brief explination of a cell phone.
I could go into a lot more detail, even post a schematic for a cell phone, but I won't.

Anyway, as for cell phones being safe or not, I can't see any harm coming to someone like me from one.
Even tho I own a cell phone, I mostly use it for text, and voice on a rare occasion (Low credit most times :)).
But for someone who constantly has the phone on the side of the head, who knows.
Perhaps a wireless headset would be ok, a bluetooth one ideally, as they only have a 1mW transceiver assembly in them.

Perhaps children are more at risk than anyone else, espically under 18's.
Most children (over here anyway) have a cell phone in school. Some as young as 8.
I can see the plus points (parents being able to get in touch anytime), but since their bone structure hasn't finished developing, then who knows what RF could do, even as low as half a watt.
Now, most schools ban cell phones, and confiscate them if used in school time.
There is also a general warning out as well as its not advisable to use a cell phone if your under 18.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by MGE
When I said 2 channel, I meant, it only uses two channels at a time. (I am aware of the various methods different cell manufactures use.)
One for recieving voice, and one for transmitting voice.
Strictly speaking, voice isn't transmitted anymore, its encoded and sent as data. But anyway, I'm straying from the point.
I was trying to give a very very very brief explination of a cell phone.
I could go into a lot more detail, even post a schematic for a cell phone, but I won't.

Anyway, as for cell phones being safe or not, I can't see any harm coming to someone like me from one.
Even tho I own a cell phone, I mostly use it for text, and voice on a rare occasion (Low credit most times :)).
But for someone who constantly has the phone on the side of the head, who knows.
Perhaps a wireless headset would be ok, a bluetooth one ideally, as they only have a 1mW transceiver assembly in them.

Perhaps children are more at risk than anyone else, espically under 18's.
Most children (over here anyway) have a cell phone in school. Some as young as 8.
I can see the plus points (parents being able to get in touch anytime), but since their bone structure hasn't finished developing, then who knows what RF could do, even as low as half a watt.
Now, most schools ban cell phones, and confiscate them if used in school time.
There is also a general warning out as well as its not advisable to use a cell phone if your under 18.

I'm fully aware of the intricacies of the cellphone system. I've obtained my FCC first radiotelephone license in 1972 and have worked on large microwave systems and the original cellphone installations for Motorola in the early '70s also. I've been in broadcast television as a transmitter and RF plant supervisor for 25 years and as I type this I'm trying to track down a replacement PC board from Harris that has been miss-shipped.

I have reservations about some of the claims about cellphone dangers and I also know the results of test that I conducted for RF exposure in the mid '70s. I will not use a cellphone close to my head for more than one minute out of five. I normally use a headset for long conversations or a device that shields the cranium from direct exposure.

[MGE]

Originally posted by bejohnson
I'm fully aware of the intricacies of the cellphone system. I've obtained my FCC first radiotelephone license in 1972 and have worked on large microwave systems and the original cellphone installations for Motorola in the early '70s also. I've been in broadcast television as a transmitter and RF plant supervisor for 25 years and as I type this I'm trying to track down a replacement PC board from Harris that has been miss-shipped.

I have reservations about some of the claims about cellphone dangers and I also know the results of test that I conducted for RF exposure in the mid '70s. I will not use a cellphone close to my head for more than one minute out of five. I normally use a headset for long conversations or a device that shields the cranium from direct exposure.

Ok, I think I worded my last reply slightly wrong or gave off the wrong impression, and offended you. Sorry about that.
I wasn't trying to say, or imply, that I thought you didn't know anything about RF.
I was just stating what I knew and understood about RF from messing about with some RF projects I'm working on myself.

From what you have typed, its pretty obvious you know way more than me when it comes to RF, which would be obvious, as I'm only 24 :)
The only problem I have is making a transmitter that is small, which can carry NMEA data strings, and has a range of about 1 mile.
Anyway, i'm starting to stary from the subject again :)

Personally, if I ever use my cell phone for voice, I use the speaker phone function, and set it on my desk. The Ultimate (if not battery intensive) hands free solution :D

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by MGE
Ok, I think I worded my last reply slightly wrong or gave off the wrong impression, and offended you. Sorry about that.
I wasn't trying to say, or imply, that I thought you didn't know anything about RF.
I was just stating what I knew and understood about RF from messing about with some RF projects I'm working on myself.

From what you have typed, its pretty obvious you know way more than me when it comes to RF, which would be obvious, as I'm only 24 :)
The only problem I have is making a transmitter that is small, which can carry NMEA data strings, and has a range of about 1 mile.
Anyway, i'm starting to stary from the subject again :)

Personally, if I ever use my cell phone for voice, I use the speaker phone function, and set it on my desk. The Ultimate (if not battery intensive) hands free solution :D

No offense. Just thought I'd mention my credentials. :) I'm also married to a navy captain that is among other things an electrical engineer with a MS and a PH.D. So if I ever have a question I just call up my walking encyclopedia. :rofl2

[wazman]

I still say there's no more danger in using a cell phone than there is in driving a car. Whether it's RF in your brain or an 18-wheeler in your hood, you're still gonna die.

And having escaped death in a car crash once in my life by less than a foot, I think I have some good credentials myself.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by wazman
I still say there's no more danger in using a cell phone than there is in driving a car. Whether it's RF in your brain or an 18-wheeler in your hood, you're still gonna die.

And having escaped death in a car crash once in my life by less than a foot, I think I have some good credentials myself.

Having been in that situation myself all I can say is, I bet you had to get new underwear.:lmao Remember how your mom would always say to wear clean underwear in case you were in an accident and had to go to the hospital? :rofl2

[Artcwolf]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Having been in that situation myself all I can say is, I bet you had to get new underwear.:lmao Remember how your mom would always say to wear clean underwear in case you were in an accident and had to go to the hospital? :rofl2

So, now your saying that using a cell phone triggers bowel movements?!?

I'm in trouble now...:lmao

[wazman]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Having been in that situation myself all I can say is, I bet you had to get new underwear.:lmao Remember how your mom would always say to wear clean underwear in case you were in an accident and had to go to the hospital? :rofl2

No, I didn't. But I did have to get about $5000 of damage to my car fixed, and I missed a light pole by about half a foot. 6 inches to the right and I wouldn't be here annoying all of you today.

Unlucky for you guys, huh?

[MGE]

Originally posted by Artcwolf
So, now your saying that using a cell phone triggers bowel movements?!?

I'm in trouble now...:lmao

Only if driving :D

[MGE]

Originally posted by bejohnson
No offense. Just thought I'd mention my credentials. :) I'm also married to a navy captain that is among other things an electrical engineer with a MS and a PH.D. So if I ever have a question I just call up my walking encyclopedia. :rofl2

Cool :)
I've just started to follow my electronics cravings, and decided to get some qualifacations behind me, and then change from PC Technician, to something a little more involved, like Embedded Systems. :D

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by wazman
No, I didn't. But I did have to get about $5000 of damage to my car fixed, and I missed a light pole by about half a foot. 6 inches to the right and I wouldn't be here annoying all of you today.

Unlucky for you guys, huh?

Just Damn!:rofl2 :KICK ASS

[getit29]

Originally posted by wazman
No, I didn't. But I did have to get about $5000 of damage to my car fixed, and I missed a light pole by about half a foot. 6 inches to the right and I wouldn't be here annoying all of you today.

Unlucky for you guys, huh?
N0000oooooooo :Nope no wazman in here it just wouldn't be the same
with out the wazman being here hehehehe the only real danger I
see with cell phones is when people use them while trying to drive
their vehicles and talk at the same time :Holy Crap I've had a few close calls
with people talking and driving at the same time not watching what
they are doing or where they are going :mad: :banghead when I had my cell
phone in the car I would always pull over and park somewhere when
I had a call come in or needed to make a call safer that way :thumb