Something That Didn't Make The News

[bejohnson]

I read the report on this about two weeks after it happened. I'm glad the Corps rewarding his actions and bravery. This young man is the example that we should recall when we say "Member of the United States Armed Forces" not those *****s that were in the prison in Iraq.
SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T MAKE THE NEWS (http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=1400&go=4)
Written May 7, 2004
by Bob Lonsberry © 2004


Maybe you’d like to hear about something other than ***** Reservists and naked Iraqis.

Maybe you’d like to hear about a real American, somebody who honored the uniform he wears.

Meet Brian Chontosh.

Churchville-Chili Central School class of 1991. Proud graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology. Husband and about-to-be father. First lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps.

And a genuine hero.

The secretary of the Navy said so yesterday.

At 29 Palms in California Brian Chontosh was presented with the Navy Cross, the second highest award for combat bravery the United States can bestow.

That’s a big deal.

But you won’t see it on the network news tonight, and all you read in Brian’s hometown newspaper was two paragraphs of nothing. Instead, it was more blather about some mental defective MPs who acted like animals.

The odd fact about the American media in this war is that it’s not covering the American military. The most plugged-in nation in the world is receiving virtually no true information about what its warriors are doing.

Oh, sure, there’s a body count. We know how many Americans have fallen. And we see those same casket pictures day in and day out. And we’re almost on a first-name basis with the pukes who abused the Iraqi prisoners. And we know all about improvised explosive devices and how we lost Fallujah and what Arab public-opinion polls say about us and how the world hates us.

We get a non-stop feed of gloom and doom.

But we don’t hear about the heroes.

The incredibly brave GIs who honorably do their duty. The ones our grandparents would have carried on their shoulders down Fifth Avenue.

The ones we completely ignore.

Like Brian Chontosh.

It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad. Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee.

When all hell broke loose.

Ambush city.

The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him.

So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire.

It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish.

And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them.

Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride.

And he ran down the trench.

With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers.

And he killed them all.

He fought with the M16 until it was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man’s AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man’s AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo.

At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion.

When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon’s flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more.

But that’s probably not how he would tell it.

He would probably merely say that his Marines were in trouble, and he got them out of trouble. Hoo-ah, and drive on.

“By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, unlimited courage in the face of heavy enemy fire, and utmost devotion to duty, 1st Lt. Chontosh reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.”

That’s what the citation says.

And that’s what nobody will hear.

That’s what doesn’t seem to be making the evening news. Accounts of American valor are dismissed by the press as propaganda, yet accounts of American difficulties are heralded as objectivity. It makes you wonder if the role of the media is to inform, or to depress – to report or to deride. To tell the truth, or to feed us lies.

But I guess it doesn’t matter.

We’re going to turn out all right.

As long as men like Brian Chontosh wear our uniform.

[Maro]

The thing is no-one doubts that there are Marines etc doing stuff like this everyday, one of the hang-ups of America as a so-called "Young" country is that it overly worries about other countries opinions of it.
that is why the political leadership is seen to be weak - they keep changing their minds which leaves the troops with their asses hanging out!

The term from Vietnam adequately describes them as REMF's

[t00lb0x]

The news isn't in it for the news, its in it for the money.

Sit down and watch Fox news (maybe the worst of the worst.) The newscaster just care about making their 7 figure salaries.

Its about ratings and nothing else. There are no more ethics or real news casters.

Its not suprising to read this.

[Bobenis]

I dont see how it's a proud thing to say you killed 20 people. That is something to be proud about? I concur.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
I dont see how it's a proud thing to say you killed 20 people. That is something to be proud about? I concur.
I see you have never been in the stress of a life and death situation, I hope you never are. Once you experience what is being referred to here you will look at it a little differently. He's not proud of killing 20 people. The Corps and everyone else is rightfully proud of a well trained marine that went beyond the call of duty to save the men intrusted to his leadership. By doing what he did he saved countless American lives.

War when you are on the battlefield is not like the video games, it's a exercise in survival. As the old clichè goes, "It's either kill or be killed." The fact that he went beyond the call of duty earns him the respect and the title of "Hero".

I think this quote attributed to Alvin York (Congressional Medal of Honor awardee from WWI) in the movie "Sergeant York" says it best.
Well I'm as much agin killin' as ever sir. --- But it was this way Colonel. --- When I started out I felt just like you said, but when I hear them machine guns a goin' and all them fellas are droppin' around me --- I figured them guns was killin' hundreds maybe thousands and there wern't nothin' any body could do, but to stop them guns. And that's what I done.

[Bobenis]

I understand that bejohnson but it was different in WWI/II as people were conscripted into fighting...they had no choice in the matter. They were given 6 weeks of bogus training and went over and had no choice but to kill to survive man. Today we all have a choice of whether we go into the military or not and we know what will have to be done if there is a war. So you make a choice of whether you will have to kill on a battlefield or not in today's military. So those who join the military have that in their mind before, during and after its all over and they agree with it and sign up. You can not compare WWI/II to today's wars...never. Those people are real heros as they had no choice...Fascism was seriously spreading to every European block and would have kept spreading if it hadn't been quelled. We don't see that in today's wars. Is Iraq and their mindset rushing over countries with charismatic fervour? No...if this was the case there would be a uniting of all Muslims and Jihad would commence. Then we would truly be screwed and all would have to fight for a common cause. But as it were...Saddam was never taken out and should have been 13 years ago...so obviously it was never that important until recently and the war wages on in one country and one alone. Why do you think so many other counries opposed the war?

Now Bush wants to take out Castro and his younger brother who will take over...to make Cuba a free country? WTF, who is he to decide that and thik what is best for another country? Talk about the "ME" philosophy and what i think is good for me must be for everyone! Does he have to be the big bully on the block everywhere and flex his might? If Communism in Cuba is so bad, why do 1000's of people travel there every year for wonderful vacations? Hence another old American minset of the Cuban missile crisis in action and that is why still to this day no American can fly for th US to Cuba nor buy a Cuban cigar. Sorry...lol..I was digressing there a bit. Ooops.

[Maro]

Originally posted by Bobenis
I understand that bejohnson but it was different in WWI/II as people were conscripted into fighting...they had no choice in the matter. They were given 6 weeks of bogus training and went over and had no choice but to kill to survive man. Today we all have a choice of whether we go into the military or not and we know what will have to be done if there is a war. So you make a choice of whether you will have to kill on a battlefield or not in today's military. So those who join the military have that in their mind before, during and after its all over and they agree with it and sign up.


Actually that is slightly incorrect - I have posted in another topic regarding this. Most British troops are career soldiers, some of them have been around since the Falklands war. Most of the regular troops in the US Army are there to get their tuition paid (That is a separate issue as to why). There is a hard core of "lifers" but not many now that the cuts have started.

Half the reason all of this bad press is happening is that they are not regular troops and never expected to be sent ot Iraq - 20 years ago there would only have been frintline troops in Iraq (maybe exempting some flight crew) The resentment they feel is reflected in some of their actions.Sadly

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
I understand that bejohnson but it was different in WWI/II as people were conscripted into fighting...they had no choice in the matter. They were given 6 weeks of bogus training and went over and had no choice but to kill to survive man. Today we all have a choice of whether we go into the military or not and we know what will have to be done if there is a war. So you make a choice of whether you will have to kill on a battlefield or not in today's military. So those who join the military have that in their mind before, during and after its all over and they agree with it and sign up. You can not compare WWI/II to today's wars...never. Those people are real heros as they had no choice...Fascism was seriously spreading to every European block and would have kept spreading if it hadn't been quelled. We don't see that in today's wars. Is Iraq and their mindset rushing over countries with charismatic fervour? No...if this was the case there would be a uniting of all Muslims and Jihad would commence. Then we would truly be screwed and all would have to fight for a common cause. But as it were...Saddam was never taken out and should have been 13 years ago...so obviously it was never that important until recently and the war wages on in one country and one alone. Why do you think so many other counries opposed the war?

Now Bush wants to take out Castro and his younger brother who will take over...to make Cuba a free country? WTF, who is he to decide that and thik what is best for another country? Talk about the "ME" philosophy and what i think is good for me must be for everyone! Does he have to be the big bully on the block everywhere and flex his might? If Communism in Cuba is so bad, why do 1000's of people travel there every year for wonderful vacations? Hence another old American minset of the Cuban missile crisis in action and that is why still to this day no American can fly for th US to Cuba nor buy a Cuban cigar. Sorry...lol..I was digressing there a bit. Ooops.

Have you ever been to Cuba and seen the "Workers Paradise"? I have and the place is a picture of the 1950s. Poverty is rampant. Why do you think that half of Cuba is in South Florida? It's not for the orange juice. BTW every president since Kennedy has wanted to get rid of Castro. The CIA tried in 1962 at the Bay of Pigs and it was a disaster. The U.S. is waiting for Castro to die. Cuba has little strategic importance to the U.S., it's more like a thorn in our side. Castro is contained and nothing goes in or out that we do not know about so he is impotent as a threat.

[Bobenis]

Well look at the US...is it poverty rampant? Tell me man. I have a news paper clipping from a week ago about how Bush wants to turn it into a US paradise (extending his neo-colonialism once again). The western view reigns supreme as it always has with horrendous results. Communism isn't bad, it's great in theory but like democracy as we know it, not true democracy, it doesn't work too well. Look at Singapore and Malaysia, they are socialist and it works great. I can scan it and post it...my dog chewed part of it the little dink..I will try to repair it and post it. If not tonight then tomorrow.

[eire1274]

I have only one thing to say:

Semper Fi.

Yes, in this day and age, we aren't dealing with a draft. We are dealing with men and women who have chosen to put their lives on the line in order to support what the believe. God willing, we'd all be strong enough in our convictions.

1st Lt. Brian Chontosh prevented the death of his personnel at the expense of the death of his "enemy." As was said by the samurai of times past, and as was said in my martial training, "if you are of age to pick up a sword, you are of age to die." The Iraqi soldiers knew death was at risk in such a conflict. The Marines knew this as well. It takes being a soldier, perhaps, to understand the honor in this.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
Well look at the US...is it poverty rampant?

If you try to compare the poorest people in this country to the poverty in other areas of the world you would be laughed down. The only problem with most of the poorer people in this country is they lack a proper education and in some cases the proper drive to succeed. If immigrants can come to this country with less than 100 dollars and the clothes on their backs and have a decent house and two cars in five years anybody can do the same. You just have to want to accomplish something in your life besides sitting on your duff waiting for the welfare check.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by eire1274
I have only one thing to say:

Semper Fi.

Yes, in this day and age, we aren't dealing with a draft. We are dealing with men and women who have chosen to put their lives on the line in order to support what the believe. God willing, we'd all be strong enough in our convictions.

1st Lt. Brian Chontosh prevented the death of his personnel at the expense of the death of his "enemy." As was said by the samurai of times past, and as was said in my martial training, "if you are of age to pick up a sword, you are of age to die." The Iraqi soldiers knew death was at risk in such a conflict. The Marines knew this as well. It takes being a soldier, perhaps, to understand the honor in this.
1st Lt. Brian Chontosh exhibited one of the most important virtues of a commanding officer, the willingness to die for his men. This young man will make an excellent Marine senior officer in the not to distant future if he stays in the Corps. I hope he does because we need commanders such as him.

Semper Fi Marine.

[Bobenis]

LOL...ok so you are saying these people chose their poverty??? They decided not to get educated with the money they don't have and have no drive to succeed as a result? What about impoverished children? That is really narrow minded to say the least man. Education costs huge bucks as everything is privatized and therefore inflation sets in. Look at health care as well. People have to sell their damn houses in the US to get surgery for a life threatening situation..not breast implants. It's horrible. Privatization will be the end of life as we know it. If these people come from an impoverished family, how are they to surmass the $$ to move on? I know some do milk the system..I don't doubt that but there are a lot who are truly desolate and wish for better and strive to do so with deminishing results. We don't see many these days who come into the US or Canada with a $100 and make it big man. Those who do are illegal immigrants and work under the table/sweatshop labour as the companies paying them love it...they too milk the system with tax evation. Many poor people have dreams and die trying to make them a reality. Most poor people try their asses off. They are up before most others...going all around town getting bottles etc. What it comes down to is education should be free and something should be done to help these people to be educated. Less money on war and more money on people who are dying within our own countries rather than sending healthy people over to die in foreign ones.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by bejohnson
1st Lt. Brian Chontosh exhibited one of the most important virtues of a commanding officer, the willingness to die for his men. This young man will make an excellent Marine senior officer in the not to distant future if he stays in the Corps. I hope he does because we need commanders such as him.

Semper Fi Marine.

Yes, and firefighters die trying to rescue people whom they don't even know from burning complexes as well. Do we aknowledge them on a daily basis? Unfortunatley not. But I guess as they are not "dying for their county" it is less important?

[eire1274]

Originally posted by Bobenis
We don't see many these days who come into the US or Canada with a $100 and make it big man.
Come visit me, brother. I'll take you on a tour around my city, and introduce you to immigrants who came here with nothing, and have comfortable lives (not to mention their own businesses) now. Omaha is a tremendous melting pot, with Asian, African, European, and Hispanic immigrants comprising a startling percentage of the population, and most of them doing quite well for themselves. Omaha also has a substantially lower homeless percentage than the national average.

Just this evening, I drove a young man home from my brothers'. He was born in Ghana, and has been in the US for 18 months. He came here and spent 6 months living with a "friend of a friend," sleeping on a mattress in a basement. He has three jobs, a car (which he was not driving because it was stolen last week and is being repaired), and his own apartment, and is on top of all of this attending a full time class schedule at Univ. NE Omaha. His work ethic makes my entrepreneurial efforts look like downright slothfulness.
Yes, and firefighters die trying to rescue people whom they don't even know from burning complexes as well. Do we aknowledge them on a daily basis?
I do. If you don't, don't heap your guilt on me. My wife comes from a family of firefighters, and I respect them as much as I respect our country's soldiers.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by eire1274
Come visit me, brother. I'll take you on a tour around my city, and introduce you to immigrants who came here with nothing, and have comfortable lives (not to mention their own businesses) now. Omaha is a tremendous melting pot, with Asian, African, European, and Hispanic immigrants comprising a startling percentage of the population, and most of them doing quite well for themselves. Omaha also has a substantially lower homeless percentage than the national average.

Just this evening, I drove a young man home from my brothers'. He was born in Ghana, and has been in the US for 18 months. He came here and spent 6 months living with a "friend of a friend," sleeping on a mattress in a basement. He has three jobs, a car (which he was not driving because it was stolen last week and is being repaired), and his own apartment, and is on top of all of this attending a full time class schedule at Univ. NE Omaha. His work ethic makes my entrepreneurial efforts look like downright slothfulness.

I do. If you don't, don't heap your guilt on me. My wife comes from a family of firefighters, and I respect them as much as I respect our country's soldiers.

As I said...some do make it and many dont man. My hat and heart goes out to both those who do and dont and I hold neither in higher regard as a result bro. People are people and we all have troubles, that makes not one less important than another.

I mentioned the firefighters specifically as I DO have tremendous respect for them, otherwise why would I mention it? Many lay their lives on the line for others everyday, whether it be everyday citizens doing what they feel is right or someone whose job it is to do the same. Neither is more or less important as putting anothers life before your own is compassion at its finest...that is what life is truly about...unconscious compassion and selflessness = good karma = eventual bliss.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
LOL...ok so you are saying these people chose their poverty??? They decided not to get educated with the money they don't have and have no drive to succeed as a result? What about impoverished children? That is really narrow minded to say the least man. Education costs huge bucks as everything is privatized and therefore inflation sets in. Look at health care as well. People have to sell their damn houses in the US to get surgery for a life threatening situation..not breast implants. It's horrible. Privatization will be the end of life as we know it. If these people come from an impoverished family, how are they to surmass the $$ to move on? I know some do milk the system..I don't doubt that but there are a lot who are truly desolate and wish for better and strive to do so with deminishing results. We don't see many these days who come into the US or Canada with a $100 and make it big man. Those who do are illegal immigrants and work under the table/sweatshop labour as the companies paying them love it...they too milk the system with tax evation. Many poor people have dreams and die trying to make them a reality. Most poor people try their asses off. They are up before most others...going all around town getting bottles etc. What it comes down to is education should be free and something should be done to help these people to be educated. Less money on war and more money on people who are dying within our own countries rather than sending healthy people over to die in foreign ones.

Actually those that are poor did make the decisions in their life that led them to their status today. Each of us is responsible for the life’s decisions that we make every day. These decisions will have an effect on how you live now and in the future.

I can show you hundreds of businesses within 5 miles of where I am that are owned by people that came here with nothing but a desire to succeed. Each person that succeeds works 16 - 20 hours every day, hard work is where the success is not getting a check from the government.

An article several years ago in the local paper traced some of the city's poor and found that they would work a job only until they had enough money to get by for a bit and then they would quit or get fired and draw unemployment.

Education through the 12th grade in this country is free and though the schools are terrible if a student applies him or herself they can acquire an education. Here in Georgia if the student maintains a B average they are eligible for a HOPE scholarship in the amount that, if they work their way through college and maintain their grades, will pay most of the expenses. There is no reason a person that is willing to work and makes the correct decisions about the path of their life cannot succeed.

The only Constitutional requirement for our government to expend money is to pay for the national defense. The largesse in the social programs is about to bankrupt this country as it has done in many others. The answer is not in socialism but in self-responsibility.

BTW nature is a good study on socialism. Observe the ants and the bees, every one of the members of a colony works. If one doesn't work he dies either from starving or he or she is killed. Is that what you would like to see in socialism.

Now I'm not saying that we abandon the truly needy and the sick. But we need to get a grasp on the spending and see that the money is spent only on those that need it and not on those that can and should be working.

[bejohnson]

Another thought, if this country is so terrible and filled with poverty and neglected people, why are all the poor people from the rest of the world trying and sometimes dying to get here. It's because they, more than our own people, know that this is the land of opportunity for those that are willing to work. The only people that complain about the conditions in this country are the people that are just to damn lazy to work.

[Bobenis]

Opportunity is not a 100% solid for all. It oscillates. As I stated, there are those who milk the system without a doubt but there are also those who try and yet stand still. Not everyone gets the opportunity man. There are those with medical conditions, those with families to support etc. Many try all their lives and don't make it. Lessons in life to remember for the next I suppose. If those who are educated and skilled are getting laid off by the 1000's, then what are those who are unskilled and impoverished to do? I don't disagree with your argument but there are many facets to this dilemma besides left and right.

Socialism, if in an ant colony, is the way it is then that says something however, doesn't it? These ants have had this system before they were ants and something which they derived from. Long before we existed and yet they still live and thrive and will long after we are gone. Thus they lack or rather succeed without greed and monopoly and use only simplicity. They are egalitarian in nature rather than socially stratified. Right? Is that wrong?

[Bobenis]

Also, look at Singapore or Malaysia. THey don't kill those who do not do the "drone" activity. They both are among the richest and most clean, well managed countries on the planet. People live there in quite happy conditions and they are not prisoners nor ruled under an "iron fist." Do some research on either of these socialist countries...you may be suprised. I am not a extreme leftist by any means but I would far prefer to steer to the left rather than right any day. :KICK ASS

[bejohnson]

The one thing that the U.S. has though is the freedom to do pretty much as you wish. We are not cained for chewing gum in public. The U.S.'s freedom and liberty is the envy of the world and that envy is why so many people are always trying to find fault with us. We may be arrogant, rude and unwashed but we are free and that includes the freedom to fail.

[Bobenis]

I wont argue about that. Gum chewing is illegal because of waste and litter. Something that we westerners take for granted and destroy our beautiful environment as a result however. Styrofoam, fast food litter everywhere, etc. One thing I think we DON'T have the right or freedom to do is destroy that which is not ours to do so and that is the environment/mother nature. We will all pay the dear reprocussions of our selfish actions as a result...trust me on that.

[Bobenis]

To be continued tomorrow...so damn late!!! Crap! THere goes my morning now. It's been fun bro. Sleep well bejohnson.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
I wont argue about that. Gum chewing is illegal because of waste and litter. Something that we westerners take for granted and destroy our beautiful environment as a result however. Styrofoam, fast food litter everywhere, etc. One thing I think we DON'T have the right or freedom to do is destroy that which is not ours to do so and that is the environment/mother nature. We will all pay the dear reprocussions of our selfish actions as a result...trust me on that.

Totally off subject here but Rodney request that we limit our signatures to 10 lines and set the size to one. This is because of the space on each page. The smaller signatures allow more replies per page.

Not complaining but just thought I would mention it.:thumb

[JCYC5]

That makes me proud...

When you're out there, you're not fighting for anything material. It's not for money. It's not even for honor. It's for the other men around you

:luxhello

[wallbanger2]

Good debate gentlemen. It's nice to see two people discuss their different oppinions and social views without the name calling and petty personal verbal jabs that most of these topics degrade too.

Back to the topic however, I am very proud of Brion Chontosh. I wish we would hear more about our heros in the mainstream news instead of just the bad deeds of a few and how many have died.

[egarrard]

I want to know where Bobenis gets this garbage from. His view of America has nothing to do with what it actually is. He's arguing against something he knows nothing about. I'd like to see this "paper" he was talking about. It just dumbfounds me that someone can be that misinformed. I don't understand it. Do you really hate us that much? Or is it jealousy? :Nope :Sigh

And wallbanger, it's not a good debate when one side is ignorant of the issues, for whatever reason, intentional or otherwise. What I'm hearing bears absolutely no resemblance to the country I've lived in for 45 years and it appalls me that the rest of you seem to be treating these anti-American rants as gospel. I truly do not understand. I don't mean to rant and rave myself, but JESUS!!!

It's a puzzle...

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :Sigh

[wallbanger2]

And wallbanger, it's not a good debate when one side is ignorant of the issues, for whatever reason, intentional or otherwise.
I find it's a good debate because we have 2 people with with 2 differing opinions on a subject and they are both able to express themselves and thier opinions without resorting to personal attacks. Just because I happen to enjoy the debate does not mean I agree with one side or the other. (I personally side with bejohnson on this issue). In my opinion a debate is an exchange of pros and cons on a subject that is done civilly and with respect and these 2 gentlemen have met those criteria. Of course this is still just my opinion.
;)

[wazman]

Originally posted by egarrard
I want to know where Bobenis gets this garbage from. His view of America has nothing to do with what it actually is. He's arguing against something he knows nothing about. I'd like to see this "paper" he was talking about. It just dumbfounds me that someone can be that misinformed. I don't understand it. Do you really hate us that much? Or is it jealousy? :Nope :Sigh

And wallbanger, it's not a good debate when one side is ignorant of the issues, for whatever reason, intentional or otherwise. What I'm hearing bears absolutely no resemblance to the country I've lived in for 45 years and it appalls me that the rest of you seem to be treating these anti-American rants as gospel. I truly do not understand. I don't mean to rant and rave myself, but JESUS!!!

It's a puzzle...

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :Sigh

But that's only your view - that people are ignorant.

How many people are absolutely sure they know something that turns out to be false?

It's all opinion anyway.

[Bobenis]

I base my views not only on the US but people in general. The US can be very hostile, I lived there for several years...6 to be exact. Why egarrard do you say my views are garbage? To what am I misinformed about man? You have lost me and rather insulted me with your info that has no links to what you call garbage and views. Where did I say anything bad about the US people? The leadership lacks intelligence certainly. Was it because I don't see killing people as something to be proud of? Please enlighten me man. The paper you refer to was in another topic and was about HIV/AIDS in Thailand and the behavourial changes as a result (maybe you disagree about the AIDS thing but we all are entitled to our views, please don't castrate me for mine sir). Why do you bring that up here in this thread? Im lost...:What the

[lurker]

Originally posted by egarrard
I want to know where Bobenis gets this garbage from. His view of America has nothing to do with what it actually is. He's arguing against something he knows nothing about. I'd like to see this "paper" he was talking about. It just dumbfounds me that someone can be that misinformed. I don't understand it. Do you really hate us that much? Or is it jealousy? :Nope :Sigh

And wallbanger, it's not a good debate when one side is ignorant of the issues, for whatever reason, intentional or otherwise. What I'm hearing bears absolutely no resemblance to the country I've lived in for 45 years and it appalls me that the rest of you seem to be treating these anti-American rants as gospel. I truly do not understand. I don't mean to rant and rave myself, but JESUS!!!

It's a puzzle...

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :Sigh


Its statements like this that causes people from other countries to dislike the U.S. Is it any wonder that there is so much America bashing going on today?

America, land of the free, home of the brave, the keepers of world peace (like it or not) and a place where arrogance runs rampant.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by lurker
Its statements like this that causes people from other countries to dislike the U.S. Is it any wonder that there is so much America bashing going on today?

America, land of the free, home of the brave, the keepers of world peace (like it or not) and a place where arrogance runs rampant.
Maybe it is about time we let the rest of the world shoulder their share of the responsibility of keeping the world's peace. If they don't like the U.S. being the greatest country on the planet then we don't have to support them. If we decided to keep all of our money in this country we would be better off here but everyone else would be yelling that we were "selfish". I agree with egarrard on this one, there is a huge amount of envy and ignorance in the world.

People like to bash us but where do most of the people in this world want to immigrate? They know that for all of our faults and blemishes that this is where a person can succeed and live a quality life. All it takes is effort and self-responsibility.

The people in this country do not want a government that is the benevolent father that looks after every facet of their life from cradle to grave. They have and want the freedom to make their own decisions that determine the path their life takes. Yes there is a minority of people in this country that wish the government to supply everything that they need in their lives. These are the people that have usually made poor life's decisions and are now suffering the consequences of those decisions. Whether one succeeds or fails is up to the individual not some government worker and it is not the responsibility of the taxpayers of this country to correct the poor life planning of the one's that make poor decisions in their life.

This also applies to other countries, if they make poor decisions as to the defense of their way of life and their population's well being, why should the U.S. taxpayers have to bail them out. If a person in this country or another country wishes for help, that person or country must demonstrate that they are willing to do their fair share of the work to deserve that help.

[Bobenis]

Yes there is a huge amount of ignorance and envy in the world but egarrard dumped it on me when I said nothing about the US being this way. He seems frustrated and pin pointed me as the punching bag. I said nothing derogitory about the US at all and I still ask him to quote me on where I did such a thing.

[wazman]

Originally posted by Bobenis
Yes there is a huge amount of ignorance and envy in the world but egarrard dumped it on me when I said nothing about the US being this way. He seems frustrated and pin pointed me as the punching bag. I said nothing derogitory about the US at all and I still ask him to quote me on where I did such a thing.

I'd like to see that as well.

Emigrate, to the above (not your post). One emigrates from and immigrates into.

[tantousha]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Maybe it is about time we let the rest of the world shoulder their share of the responsibility of keeping the world's peace. If they don't like the U.S. being the greatest country on the planet then we don't have to support them. If we decided to keep all of our money in this country we would be better off here but everyone else would be yelling that we were "selfish". I agree with egarrard on this one, there is a huge amount of envy and ignorance in the world.

Shoulder the responsibility? Which country supplies the most troops to UN Peacekeeping troops that are deployed to all the sensitive areas in the world? Why that would be Canada...but you're right, we don't keep the peace at all...:Boring

[wazman]

Originally posted by tantousha
Shoulder the responsibility? Which country supplies the most troops to UN Peacekeeping troops that are deployed to all the sensitive areas in the world? Why that would be Canada...but you're right, we don't keep the peace at all...:Boring

Then why does the US bother to send troops at all?

If you've got everything under control, then we don't need to risk our people's lives and spend our country's money.

I agree with the Eds on this one. If other countries don't want us, then we should stay away. We've got plenty of stuff to take care of here at home. Let other people spend, fight, and die for their freedoms. We've already won ours.

Please don't turn this into another US vs. Canada grunge match. Keep it on topic.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Maybe it is about time we let the rest of the world shoulder their share of the responsibility of keeping the world's peace. If they don't like the U.S. being the greatest country on the planet then we don't have to support them. If we decided to keep all of our money in this country we would be better off here but everyone else would be yelling that we were "selfish". I agree with egarrard on this one, there is a huge amount of envy and ignorance in the world.

Well this is kind of foolish to say man. As you know, NAFTA and Free Trade has done nothing but benefit the US and take over Canada (business) and Mexico (sweatshop labour) as a result. Over 80% of businesses here in Canada are now taken over by the US. So your money isn't kept in your country but rather we are supporting your economy. Also, the US is one of the largest supporters of the WTO and most sweatshops and slave labour located in LDC's are US owned and operated companies. So you could say that the US is the most exploitative country in the world too.

There is no problem with your agreeing with egarrard but egarrard wasn't saying that in general but instead forcing it upon me and blaming me for it when I said nothing of the sort. So do you agree with him that I in fact said those things or just that he thinks that way? No country is the greatest in the world.

I love the US and have many friends there but I also love my homeland too. Dont veer off your composed track and start in with the US is best and your country does it all. That is silly and will start problems or end it with Rod shutting this thread down. Taht would mean there goes all the intelligent discussions out the window.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
Well this is kind of foolish to say man. As you know, NAFTA and Free Trade has done nothing but benefit the US and take over Canada (business) and Mexico (sweatshop labour) as a result. Over 80% of businesses here in Canada are now taken over by the US. So your money isn't kept in your country but rather we are supporting your economy. Also, the US is one of the largest supporters of the WTO and most sweatshops and slave labour located in LDC's are US owned and operated companies. So you could say that the US is the most exploitative country in the world too.

There is no problem with your agreeing with egarrard but egarrard wasn't saying that in general but instead forcing it upon me and blaming me for it when I said nothing of the sort. So do you agree with him that I in fact said those things or just that he thinks that way? No country is the greatest in the world.

I love the US and have many friends there but I also love my homeland too. Dont veer off your composed track and start in with the US is best and your country does it all. That is silly and will start problems or end it with Rod shutting this thread down. Taht would mean there goes all the intelligent discussions out the window.
How can you say that 80% of the businesses in Canada are taken over by the U.S? I would like to see the data as far as ownership of record and the statistics to back that up. I have no clue what the correct percentage is but if it was 80% I think there would be howls from the Canadian government and the general population. If the U.S. controlled 80% of the Canadian businesses that would mean we control your economy and therefore your country. I do not think that is the case.

I do not know about Canada but Mexico has benefited greatly from NAFTA at the expense of some of the U.S. workers. NAFTA has increased the standard of living in most of Mexico. BTW most of the Mexican workers are now making $5 - $10 US per hour now as compared to maybe $5/day before NAFTA. I would not call those "sweatshop" conditions at all. What is your definition of a sweatshop and if the workers are happy with their new standard of living are you the one to tell them they are in a sweatshop? Just because their average wage is less than the U.S. or Canada doesn't mean that they are any worse off. It depends on the "Standard of Living" in the region. I know of some of the Mexican workers here that have returned home because of NAFTA they can actually have a higher standard of living by working there rather than working here and sending the money home.

We are blessed with two great countries that have a long history of mutual respect and friendship. The border between the U.S. and Canada is the longest unarmed and manned border in the world and has been for many years. When you add Great Britain, Australia and Japan you have a most formidable economic power and the people in those nations are the freest in the world. Each of them has it's own national pride and rightfully so.

There is no call for bashing or attacking a country because of the stance of their politicians. You may state an opinion about the politicians themselves and even that should be done in a civil and respectful way. Calling a politician names is just as inflammatory as bashing a country.

I do not consider it foolish to wish not to support people or countries that are ungrateful or antagonistic. Also countries that try and block reasonable and logical actions in the UN for their own benefit at the expense of the entire population of a nation does not deserve the sweat off our brow much less our financial support.

If one don't consider one's own country the greatest in the world, I would question that person's patriotism. It doesn't matter which country you mention the people in that country should believe in their country first.

[t00lb0x]

NAFTA causes the US problems. It alllows owners of big buisnesses to mass produce products in Mexico where wages are lower. And that takes "American job." It cuts costs to the owners can make more money.

Bejohnson: where did you get those numbers for $5-10 an hour? That seems too high.


If one don't consider one's own country the greatest in the world, I would question that person's patriotism.

In late Rome [not Byzantine Empire, but late Rome] people hated living in Rome, as compared to when it was a Republic. Why historians like Livy are clearly biased against against Julius Caesare because he started the Empire and ended the Republic.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by t00lb0x
NAFTA causes the US problems. It alllows owners of big buisnesses to mass produce products in Mexico where wages are lower. And that takes "American job." It cuts costs to the owners can make more money.

Bejohnson: where did you get those numbers for $5-10 an hour? That seems too high.



In late Rome [not Byzantine Empire, but late Rome] people hated living in Rome, as compared to when it was a Republic. Why historians like Livy are clearly biased against against Julius Caesare because he started the Empire and ended the Republic.

Those were the figures that I read in one of the financial reports indicating that the price of automobiles might increase due to the rise of the pay of the Mexican workers to that level. $5.00/hr is about the average now.

[t00lb0x]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Those were the figures that I read in one of the financial reports indicating that the price of automobiles might increase due to the rise of the pay of the Mexican workers to that level. $5.00/hr is about the average now.

Does this apply to all industries or automobiles?

Sorry for the OT, but I find this pretty interesting.

CA minimum wage = $6.75
Mexican workers = $5.00
$1.75 saved per hour, per person.

So if you figure that they hire 100,000 workers from Mexico they can save some money. I'm going to google it.

[bejohnson]

Follow this link (http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/NAFTA@7/mx.html). It discusses the problems in Mexico caused by the increase in the standard of living to the people that are not employed by the foriegn manufacturers. As a matter of fact some of the wages have risen in Mexico to the point that the jobs are now leving Mexico for cheaper labor. :Sigh

[Bobenis]

Along with work however, NAFTA has bought industrialization to Mexico and with it an insane amount of health problems (i.e. Cancer, etc). Mexico does not have any type of health care system in effect other than those rich enough to pay into it. So I would not say it has been benefical. I watched a program recently where all the Mexicans who were interviewed complained of huge multinational conglomerate companies coming in and taking over their land, setting up factories and polluting the ground, air, and water tables as a result and thus spreading new disease and cancers. If they were making so much money there, why is it that over 200,000 of them illegally enter into California every year?

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by t00lb0x
Does this apply to all industries or automobiles?

Sorry for the OT, but I find this pretty interesting.

CA minimum wage = $6.75
Mexican workers = $5.00
$1.75 saved per hour, per person.

So if you figure that they hire 100,000 workers from Mexico they can save some money. I'm going to google it.

The largest problem is that the minimum wage in Mexico is $5.00 per DAY. The workers in Mexico that have not benefited from NAFTA jobs are really hurting. True also is some of the non-automotive NAFTA jobs pay less but still substantially above the Mexican minimum.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
Along with work however, NAFTA has bought industrialization to Mexico and with it an insane amount of health problems (i.e. Cancer, etc). Mexico does not have any type of health care system in effect other than those rich enough to pay into it. So I would not say it has been benefical. I watched a program recently where all the Mexicans who were interviewed complained of huge multinational conglomerate companies coming in and taking over their land, setting up factories and polluting the ground, air, and water tables as a result and thus spreading new disease and cancers. If they were making so much money there, why is it that over 200,000 of them illegally enter into California every year?

If you read my last two posts your question will be answered.

[t00lb0x]

I was at that site and it does explain much, but I couldn't find a number. I just did a quick skim. Another site I found said the Mexican minimum wage was $1.47 or something around there. Now the site was about how Mexico lost jobs to China who works for $.59. Of course I have no had other sources verify this.

I'm currently hand tied with work (its the suckage of being a student.)
Sorry if I can't post a good arguement currently.

why is it that over 200,000 of them illegally enter into California every year?
I just thought they liked the GOVENATOR!


Originally posted by bejohnson
The largest problem is that the minimum wage in Mexico is $5.00 per DAY. The workers in Mexico that have not Benefited from NAFTA jobs are really hurting. True also is some of the non-automotive NAFTA jobs pay less but still substantially above the Mexican minimum.

Okay that makes more sense. When you were talking $5.00 and hour I was a little bit skeptical. $5.00 a day sounds a lot more practical.

I'm not arguing if NAFTA is bad or not. I was just curious about the wages in Mexico as a claim made by Bobenis.

You and Bobenis please argue on.


*BTW* I'm starting to think we are the only people here arguing all the time LOL.

[Bobenis]

Exactly..this proves my point. NAFTA was never stared to benefit the Mexicans. It was only to exploit them via cheap labour and therefore more money to be made via profit and overhead. Canada's PM Mulroney and his greedy fingers along with Reagan and his greedy fingers would line their pockets beautifully. IT was the true birth of PRIVATIZATION!! The evil of this planet.


Remarkably, many of NAFTA¡¦s most passionate boosters in Congress and among economists never read the agreement. They made their pie-in-the-sky promises of NAFTA benefits based on trade theory and ideological prejudice for anything with the term ¡§free trade¡¨ attached to it. Now, ten years later, the time for conjecture and promises is over: the data are in and they clearly show the damage NAFTA has wrought for millions of people in the U.S., Mexico and Canada. The same interests who got us into NAFTA are now pushing to expand it and lock in 31 more countries in Latin American and the Caribbean through the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) and five Central American countries through a Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA).

In fact, calling NAFTA a ¡§trade¡¨ agreement is misleading, NAFTA is really an investment agreement. Its core provisions grant foreign investors a remarkable set of new rights and privileges that promote relocation abroad of factories and jobs and the privatization and deregulation of essential services, such as water, energy and health care.


NAFTA promoters - including many of the world¡¦s largest corporations - promised it would create hundreds of thousands of new high-wage U.S. jobs, raise living standards in the U.S., Mexico and Canada, improve environmental conditions and transform Mexico from a poor developing country into a booming new market for U.S. exports. NAFTA opponents - including labor, environmental, consumer and religious groups - argued that NAFTA would launch a race-to-the-bottom in wages, destroy hundreds of thousands of good U.S. jobs, undermine democratic control of domestic policy-making and threaten health, environmental and food safety standards. This is in fact precisely what it has achieved! Privatization in full action.

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
Exactly..this proves my point. NAFTA was never stared to benefit the Mexicans. It was only to exploit them via cheap labour and therefore more money to be made via profit and overhead. Canada's PM Mulroney and his greedy fingers along with Reagan and his greedy fingers would line their pockets beautifully. IT was the true birth of PRIVATIZATION!! The evil of this planet.


Remarkably, many of NAFTA¡¦s most passionate boosters in Congress and among economists never read the agreement. They made their pie-in-the-sky promises of NAFTA benefits based on trade theory and ideological prejudice for anything with the term ¡§free trade¡¨ attached to it. Now, ten years later, the time for conjecture and promises is over: the data are in and they clearly show the damage NAFTA has wrought for millions of people in the U.S., Mexico and Canada. The same interests who got us into NAFTA are now pushing to expand it and lock in 31 more countries in Latin American and the Caribbean through the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) and five Central American countries through a Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA).

In fact, calling NAFTA a ¡§trade¡¨ agreement is misleading, NAFTA is really an investment agreement. Its core provisions grant foreign investors a remarkable set of new rights and privileges that promote relocation abroad of factories and jobs and the privatization and deregulation of essential services, such as water, energy and health care.


NAFTA promoters - including many of the world¡¦s largest corporations - promised it would create hundreds of thousands of new high-wage U.S. jobs, raise living standards in the U.S., Mexico and Canada, improve environmental conditions and transform Mexico from a poor developing country into a booming new market for U.S. exports. NAFTA opponents - including labor, environmental, consumer and religious groups - argued that NAFTA would launch a race-to-the-bottom in wages, destroy hundreds of thousands of good U.S. jobs, undermine democratic control of domestic policy-making and threaten health, environmental and food safety standards. This is in fact precisely what it has achieved! Privatization in full action.

I see from your posts that you are totally against private business. Do you know that small private businesses account for about 80% (I Think) of the GNP in the U.S. The failure of the socialist government in the USSR should have taught you that PRIVATE businesses are the only way for an economy to flourish. As a matter of fact Marx stated that true Capitalism was a viable system. The problems we have today are too much Government interference. Most of the large socialist governments in the world have failed and most countries are moving toward a more capitalistic society, even China is moving that way. The only two really socialist countries left are North Korea and Cuba. Both are such shining examples of socialism with the rampant poverty and hunger in both nations.

I'm out of here it's time to talk with the wife.

[Bobenis]

Are you crazy!?!?! So you think everything should be unregulated by the govt? Wow...so you advocate inflation and monopolization? With privatization, eventually all utilities will be run and regualted by one or two companies, eliminating competition and therefore setting a static price that we all pay or dont get running water or power for that matter. We are talking HUGE prices. Not to mention the monopoly over something that war will soon be fought over which is water. What about education? That has been privatized and look what has happened! People cant get an education because they cant afford it. Privatization allows the deregualtion of fees which allows these companies to dictate their own prices...that is scary!!! You are obviously a major right wing advocate then? Do you own Monsanto shares..lol. As I stated, Singapore and Malaysia are socialist and their system is working well. Neo capitalism benefits only the rich and will eventually destroy our planet.

Like how Bush stated today, against what all the scientists pleaded him not to, has now taken pacific salmon off the endangered spiecies list as the "genetically modified" salmon are now seen as equal to those which are wild (due to the country being run by church and big business). Therefore they have released those genetic monsters into the wild salmon stocks and now the endangered spiecies are no longer endangered as the stocks are up (according to Bush's mentality). Brilliant. Millions of years of evolution destroyed by greed, ignorance and privatzation via big business and "GMO" fruits, veggies, and livestock of any kind. You think this is good??? WOW...im stunned.

[Maro]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Maybe it is about time we let the rest of the world shoulder their share of the responsibility of keeping the world's peace. If they don't like the U.S. being the greatest country on the planet then we don't have to support them. If we decided to keep all of our money in this country we would be better off here but everyone else would be yelling that we were "selfish". I agree with egarrard on this one, there is a huge amount of envy and ignorance in the world.



As George Bush decided to not wait for the UN and go in Unilaterally the USA has a responsibility to stay and finish the job - rightly or wrongly they removed the government so they have to replace it. Now it is becomming more difficult you can't start to complain that other countires are not helping enough.

When you mean "Greatest" is that strongest or best place to live? The former is probable whilst the latter is debatable.

As for ignorance, that is kind of patronising when you figure how much International news is coverered by the media in the States, don't forget I have been ther and seen for myself how inward looking the country is. This is not necessarily a bad thing just pointing out the opposing view

[moonman]

my reaction after reading this thread... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Sigh :Sigh :Sigh

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by bejohnson
If one don't consider one's own country the greatest in the world, I would question that person's patriotism. It doesn't matter which country you mention the people in that country should believe in their country first.

I tend to look at the world as one man...not as seperate states which colonialists built in the first place out of greed. So therefore no one country is the best but rather the world is great. Humankind are one, if you don't see that, then that is unfortunate.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by moonman
my reaction after reading this thread... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Sigh :Sigh :Sigh

I know man...I know. :Crying

[t00lb0x]

Originally posted by Bobenis
I tend to look at the world as one man...not as seperate states which colonialists built in the first place out of greed. So therefore no one country is the best but rather the world is great. Humankind are one, if you don't see that, then that is unfortunate.

The world is a bunch of countries with each of their own ups and downs. America has its flawed, but its lessed flawed then most other countries.

And, not all the world is great, I hate to say this. There are horrible places in the world, its not the world, its the people.


Originally posted by moonman
my reaction after reading this thread... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Holy Crap :Sigh :Sigh :Sigh

Thanks for contributing.

[moonman]

Originally posted by t00lb0x
Thanks for contributing.

:bounce

[wazman]

I think we're beginning to split hairs again.

WTF can we not talk about anything without getting into this US is better than everybody else/US is the devil's country stuff? What does this have to do with some guy performing a heroic act?

If a fireman saves a child from a burning building, we don't come on here and ***** about what country he's from - we just say "Wow - that guy's brave/a hero/way to go dude" and get on with life. What is the difference here?

What does it really matter if the US is the best place in the world to live? It's opinion anyway. If you don't like the US, don't live here. But don't think that gives you the right to say how we should do our business. I don't tell Nicon how they should do things in the UK, do I?

[Maro]

Who are you talking to Waz?

[lurker]

Originally posted by bejohnson
Maybe it is about time we let the rest of the world shoulder their share of the responsibility of keeping the world's peace.

These are perhaps the wises words you have ever spoken.

In this forum :cool_shad

[Bobenis]

Maybe he is referring to me? I don't say how the US should run it's own country. If it affects nature or other counrties however then it does become others business. Nature was long here before we were and will continue to after we are gone or the sun goes super nova and becomes a red giant, which won't happen for another 5 billion years, so....lol. But I think when water is being poisoned, forests are being dessecrated, or animals are becoming extinct at our greedy hands, it becomes everyones business. Ya know.

It is ok if this thread has mutated, that is the way things go when we hook up with friends for coffee and talk. It jumps all over the place, this is normal so lets enjoy eh! We are all friends here so....Coffee? :coffee

[wazman]

Originally posted by Maro
Who are you talking to Waz?

Anybody.

Everybody.

We're stuck talking about what the US should do, or shouldn't do, both in this thread and the WMD thread.

I just want to know what this has to do with the original topic.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by lurker
These are perhaps the wises words you have ever spoken.

In this forum :cool_shad

But see this is my point. The current war is not a world war. They mentality of a single dictator is not spreading and comsuming other countries through might and domination. It does not threaten the entire planet of being assimilated into a fascist regime like WWII. Countires all (our elders and let's not forget them ever!!!) fought for that cause whether they wished to or not. It was do or die then. Now there are all these hidden agendas and untold sides. That is sad. The pic below is sad too.

[t00lb0x]

You know that is fake right?

[Maro]

Originally posted by wazman
Anybody.

Everybody.

We're stuck talking about what the US should do, or shouldn't do, both in this thread and the WMD thread.

I just want to know what this has to do with the original topic.

If you read my Post I state that sadly, as Bush took the US in Unilaterally the US has to go it alone because of that decision.

I wasn't criticising th US.

[wazman]

Now I'm beginning to regret posting that "Make your own sign" thread with that picture...

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by t00lb0x
You know that is fake right?

LOL..I am not sure man. I just saw it and thought it was really sad. You have to admit it is if it is real. Doing that to some unsuspecting, non english preaking Iraqi kids. He might be French Canadian too or from France with that name? Who knows..he could be from anywhere so I wont say anymore.

[wazman]

Originally posted by Maro
If you read my Post I state that sadly, as Bush took the US in Unilaterally the US has to go it alone because of that decision.

I wasn't criticising th US.

Not saying you are. I'm just asking why we're discussing this at all.

It seems to not be the original topic of the thread, is all.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by wazman
Now I'm beginning to regret posting that "Make your own sign" thread with that picture...

My friend sent me that last night...I had never seen it before then Waz so no worries.

[wazman]

In other words, if we don't calm down, these threads are going to be closed and people are going to start getting banned again (though I'll give $20 that I know who would be banned and who wouldn't be).

So let's take a step back and move on to something else before that happens. Please?

[Maro]

Originally posted by wazman
In other words, if we don't calm down, these threads are going to be closed and people are going to start getting banned again (though I'll give $20 that I know who would be banned and who wouldn't be).

So let's take a step back and move on to something else before that happens. Please?

Cool

:thumb

I am quite literally "out to Lunch"

:KICKASS

[t00lb0x]

Originally posted by wazman
In other words, if we don't calm down, these threads are going to be closed and people are going to start getting banned again (though I'll give $20 that I know who would be banned and who wouldn't be).


Wow that was aimed at me...

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
But see this is my point. The current war is not a world war. They mentality of a single dictator is not spreading and comsuming other countries through might and domination. It does not threaten the entire planet of being assimilated into a fascist regime like WWII. Countires all (our elders and let's not forget them ever!!!) fought for that cause whether they wished to or not. It was do or die then. Now there are all these hidden agendas and untold sides. That is sad. The pic below is sad too.

That is the result of a make your your own sign web site.

Go here and make what ever you wish. (http://www.ryano.net/iraq/)

Hell the Arabs were calling for an investigation of the soldier.

People are so gullible

[Bobenis]

No...me I think...lol. So odd, I had never come to these off topic forums until several days ago...my 1000th post to be exact. I usually stick to geeky sheit like the games section...the lighter stuff. Now I am in the off topic all the time....strange.

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by bejohnson
That is the result of a make your your own sign web site.

Go here and make what ever you wish. (http://www.ryano.net/iraq/)

Hell the Arabs were calling for an investigation of the soldier.

People are so gullible

Hahahaha....nice...I did indeed. Nice one. I received it last night and it looked legit to me. Only proves to not believe everything you hear, read or see for that matter.

[egarrard]

Originally posted by wazman
WTF can we not talk about anything without getting into this US is better than everybody else/US is the devil's country stuff?

If a fireman saves a child from a burning building, we don't come on here and ***** about what country he's from - we just say "Wow - that guy's brave/a hero/way to go dude" and get on with life. What is the difference here?

What does it really matter if the US is the best place in the world to live? It's opinion anyway. If you don't like the US, don't live here. But don't think that gives you the right to say how we should do our business. I don't tell Nicon how they should do things in the UK, do I? That's the point I've been trying to make... :Sigh

[wazman]

Originally posted by t00lb0x
Wow that was aimed at me...

No it wasn't.

Not you at all.

I don't think I'm going to post anything more for a while...

Everything I say is being taken in different ways than intended.

They're just words, everybody.

[t00lb0x]

Don't leave, its actually me. Its whats been up with me for the past few weeks, I've started theropy...

[Bobenis]

Originally posted by Maro
As George Bush decided to not wait for the UN and go in Unilaterally the USA has a responsibility to stay and finish the job - rightly or wrongly they removed the government so they have to replace it. Now it is becomming more difficult you can't start to complain that other countires are not helping enough.

When you mean "Greatest" is that strongest or best place to live? The former is probable whilst the latter is debatable.

As for ignorance, that is kind of patronising when you figure how much International news is coverered by the media in the States, don't forget I have been ther and seen for myself how inward looking the country is. This is not necessarily a bad thing just pointing out the opposing view

The UN voted Canada as the best place to live 5 years in a row until last year...lol. The US media is terrible..very self absorbed (please everyone do not take that as US bashing or me involving the general populace of the US...I have to state that otherwise I will feel reverberations). I find the best news you can rely on is the BBC. Whenever I am down in the US, just a week ago, you hear no news of elsewhere really unless its huge gossip or US involved. Not a lot of World News per say. I am sure that a nuke could go off in Canada and if I were in Florida, I wouldn't hear about it...lol. CNN and FOX drive me NUTS!!!!

[bejohnson]

Originally posted by Bobenis
The UN voted Canada as the best place to live 5 years in a row until last year...lol. The US media is terrible..very self absorbed (please everyone do not take that as US bashing or me involving the general populace of the US...I have to state that otherwise I will feel reverberations). I find the best news you can rely on is the BBC. Whenever I am down in the US, just a week ago, you hear no news of elsewhere really unless its huge gossip or US involved. Not a lot of World News per say. I am sure that a nuke could go off in Canada and if I were in Florida, I wouldn't hear about it...lol. CNN and FOX drive me NUTS!!!!

One thing we can agree on. The media including the BBC stinks. That is why I read so many sources over the Web and draw my own conclusions.