The Price of Death

[lurker]

The Price of Death
by MFSO Member Dante Zappala

Dante Zappala teaches history at Fremont High School in Los Angeles.
His brother Sherwood Baker was killed in action in Baghdad on April 26, 2004.
This essay was published in the Los Angeles Times.

Not long ago, $250,000 bought you a house, a car, started a college trust fund and still left you with enough for dinner at the Olive Garden. Today, $250,000 gets you a dead soldier.

My brother, Sgt. Sherwood Baker, was killed in action in Baghdad last month. Before he left, he took out the maximum Servicemembers' Group Life Insurance: $250,000. His wife gets that money and a folded flag. It should come with note: "Thanks for doing business with Uncle Sam. The medals are on us." What I'm left with is a dead brother, a fatherless nephew and a giant void where this giant man once stood.

For a guy who never made a lot of money in his life--he was a front line soldier making $2500 a month--Sherwood paid the highest price in the war, while companies and individuals in the war business are reaping maximum profits. Bush has dumped $149 billion into this war. In what reservoir does the all this money rain? Certainly not the bank accounts of widows! Who is truly rewarded for their sacrifice? How about this: Halliburton has racked up billions in government contracts since the start of the war.

And then there's Ahmed Chalabi and the INC. His organization received $39 million in 'aid' along with a fat $340,000 a month stipend for the last 2 years.

Sherwood had it all wrong. Maybe if he had helped to invent evidence to start a war, the Bush people would have been more rewarding. He certainly would have been on track to a safer and more profitable career path.

What exactly is false information worth to Uncle Sam? So long as you don't become an Iranian spy, it seems, it keeps you in the Pentagon penthouse.

But that racket wouldn't suit Sherwood. He did what most patriotic Americans do-he worked for a living. He knew he would never be rich from his job, but he wanted to help people. He was a county caseworker for the mentally handicapped. To supplement his income, he hired himself out as a DJ at local bars and clubs. Sherwood wasn't enough of an entrepreneur to make it into Harvard Business School. So, when George Bush told him to go to work with his Guard Unit in Iraq, he went willingly.

Sherwood never did own a Hummer; he was a gunner on a Humvee. Today, he's not lying on the couch in his remolded living room with a Big Screen TV and surround sound, playing video games with his son. He's lying alone in his grave.

Sherwood worked until the very end--he died pulling perimeter security for the Iraqi Survey Group. This group has assumed the responsibility of finding those elusive weapons of mass destruction (WMD)--any WMD--with the high hopes of making an honest man out of the President.

Sherwood's death presents an amazing irony. Find WMD, Sherwood? No, brother, if you wanted to make money and be alive, you should have told everybody that they existed and you knew where to find them.

Just before he died, Sherwood plainly illustrated where a life of hard work and dedication gets you--hungry and thirsty in the desert. In his last e-mail, he asked that we send him and his fellow soldiers food and water. As it turns out, the most powerful military machine in the world has its soldiers on rations.

How does this happen? I went to Halliburton's website to look for clues. After a dispute with the government over a few million dollars in overcharges, Halliburton stubbornly stated, "We may withhold all or a portion of the payments to our subcontractors" who provide food services. Which basically means that U.S. soldiers in Iraq don't eat. Despite its newfound billions in revenue, Halliburton has failed to fulfill its most basic responsibility--feed our troops. Our soldiers, on the other hand, have to do their job, no matter how hungry they are, or face courts-martial and time in Leavenworth. Just ask Camilo Mejia, the conscientious objector who was sentenced to a year in jail.

I've come to believe that Sherwood died for everybody else. I've had countless people tell me my brother is a hero and died defending our freedom. They may be right. In a country that promotes the virtues of the Free Market, he died for the benefit of the war profiteers and for very little benefit to himself.

As of 6/13/04
834 U.S. KIA
59 U.K. KIA
57 Other Nations KIA
:Sigh :Nope :Sigh :Nope :Sigh :Nope

[bejohnson]

While my condolences and heart go out to Dante Zappala in his grief he is striking out at what he perceives as the cause of the death of his brother. Over the years millions of men and women have lost their lives in support of what they believed. The survivors are left to deal with their grief and it is only human to blame someone.

The events of the past week have shown that the evidence was not invented. I will post some of the intelligence that has been declassified as an attachment.

Here is the story of one marine that also died. He paid the ultimate price and did it willingly. This is the true cost of death when we lose brave young men in the defense of others whether it is their buddies or you and I. The question should be where do we find such caliber young men and women?

Marine recommend for the Medal of Honor
In Combat, Marine Put Theory to Test,
Comrades Believe Cpl. Dunham's Quick Action
In Face of a Grenade Saved 2 Lives, They Say

By MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
May 25, 2004;

AL QA'IM, Iraq -- Early this spring, Cpl. Jason Dunham and two other Marines sat in an outpost in Iraq and traded theories on surviving a hand-grenade attack.

Second Lt. Brian "Bull" Robinson suggested that if a Marine lay face down on the grenade and held it between his forearms, the ceramic bulletproof plate in his flak vest might be strong enough to protect his vital organs. His arms would shatter, but he might live.

Cpl. Dunham had another idea: A Marine's Kevlar helmet held over the grenade might contain the blast. "I'll bet a Kevlar would stop it," he said, according to Second Lt. Robinson.

"No, it'll still mess you up," Staff Sgt. John Ferguson recalls saying.

It was a conversation the men would remember vividly a few weeks later, when they saw the shredded remains of Cpl. Dunham's helmet, apparently blown apart from the inside by a grenade. Fellow Marines believe Cpl. Dunham's actions saved the lives of two men and have recommended him for the Medal of Honor, an award that no act of heroism since 1993 has garnered.

A 6-foot-1 star high-school athlete from Scio, N.Y., Cpl. Dunham was chosen to become a squad leader shortly after he was assigned to Kilo Company, Third Battalion, Seventh Marine Regiment in September 2003. Just 22 years old, he showed "the kind of leadership where you're confident in your abilities and don't have to yell about it," says Staff Sgt. Ferguson, 30, of Aurora, Colo. Cpl. Dunham's reputation grew when he extended his enlistment, due to end in July, so he could stay with his squad throughout its tour in the war zone.

During the invasion of Iraq last year, the Third Battalion didn't suffer any combat casualties. But since March, 10 of its 900 Marines have died from hostile fire, and 89 have been wounded.

April 14 was an especially bad day. Cpl. Dunham was in the town of Karabilah, leading a 14-man foot patrol to scout sites for a new base, when radio reports came pouring in about a roadside bomb hitting another group of Marines not far away.

Insurgents, the reports said, had ambushed a convoy that included the battalion commander, 40-year-old Lt. Col. Matthew Lopez, of Chicago. One rifle shot penetrated the rear of the commander's Humvee, hitting him in the back, Lt. Col. Lopez says. His translator and bodyguard, Lance Cpl. Akram Falah, 23, of Anaheim, Calif., had taken a bullet to the bicep, severing an artery, according to medical reports filed later.

Cpl. Dunham's patrol jumped aboard some Humvees and raced toward the convoy. Near the double-arched gateway of the town of Husaybah, they heard the distinctive whizzing sound of a rocket-propelled grenade overhead. They left their vehicles and split into two teams to hunt for the shooters, according to interviews with two men who were there and written reports from two others.

Around 12:15 p.m., Cpl. Dunham's team came to an intersection and saw a line of seven Iraqi vehicles along a dirt alleyway, according to Staff Sgt. Ferguson and others there. At Staff Sgt. Ferguson's instruction, they started checking the vehicles for weapons.

Cpl. Dunham approached a run-down white Toyota Land Cruiser. The driver, an Iraqi in a black track suit and loafers, immediately lunged out and grabbed the corporal by the throat, according to men at the scene. Cpl. Dunham kneed the man in the chest, and the two tumbled to the ground.

Two other Marines rushed to the scene. Private First Class Kelly Miller, 21, of Eureka, Calif., ran from the passenger side of the vehicle and put a choke hold around the man's neck. But the Iraqi continued to struggle, according to a military report Pfc. Miller gave later. Lance Cpl. William B. Hampton, 22, of Woodinville, Wash., also ran to help.

A few yards away, Lance Cpl. Jason Sanders, 21, a radio operator from McAlester, Okla., says he heard Cpl. Dunham yell a warning: "No, no, no -- watch his hand!"

What was in the Iraqi's hand appears to have been a British-made "Mills Bomb" hand grenade. The Marines later found an unexploded Mills Bomb in the Toyota, along with AK-47 assault rifles and rocket-propelled-grenade launchers.

A Mills Bomb user pulls a ring pin out and squeezes the external lever -- called the spoon -- until he's ready to throw it. Then he releases the spoon, leaving the bomb armed. Typically, three to five seconds elapse between the time the spoon detaches and the grenade explodes. The Marines later found what they believe to have been the grenade's pin on the floor of the Toyota, suggesting that the Iraqi had the grenade in his hand -- on a hair trigger -- even as he wrestled with Cpl. Dunham.

None of the other Marines saw exactly what Cpl. Dunham did, or even saw the grenade. But they believe Cpl. Dunham spotted the grenade -- prompting his warning cry -- and, when it rolled loose, placed his helmet and body on top of it to protect his squadmates.

The scraps of Kevlar found later, scattered across the street, supported their conclusion. The grenade, they think, must have been inside the helmet when it exploded. His fellow Marines believe that Cpl. Dunham made an instantaneous decision to try out his theory that a helmet might blunt the grenade blast.

"I deeply believe that given the facts and evidence presented he clearly understood the situation and attempted to block the blast of the grenade from his squad members," Lt. Col. Lopez wrote in a May 13 letter recommending Cpl. Dunham for the Medal of Honor, the nation's highest award for military valor. "His personal action was far beyond the call of duty and saved the lives of his fellow Marines."

Recommendations for the Medal of Honor are rare. The Marines say they have no other candidates awaiting approval. Unlike other awards, the Medal of Honor must be approved by the president. The most recent act of heroism to earn the medal came 11 years ago, when two Army Delta Force soldiers gave their lives protecting a downed Blackhawk helicopter pilot in Somalia.

Staff Sgt. Ferguson was crossing the street to help when the grenade exploded. He recalls feeling a hollow punch in his chest that reminded him of being close to the starting line when dragsters gun their engines. Lance Cpl. Sanders, approaching the scene, was temporarily deafened, he says. He assumed all three Marines and the Iraqi must surely be dead.

In fact, the explosion left Cpl. Dunham unconscious and face down in his own blood, according to Lance Cpl. Sanders. He says the Iraqi lay on his back, bleeding from his midsection.

The fight wasn't over, however. To Lance Cpl. Sanders's surprise, the Iraqi got up and ran. Lance Cpl. Sanders says he raised his rifle and fired 25 shots at the man's back, killing him.

The other two Marines were injured, but alive. Lance Cpl. Hampton was spitting up blood and had shrapnel embedded in his left leg, knee, arm and face, according to a military transcript. Pfc. Miller's arms had been perforated by shrapnel. Yet both Marines struggled to their feet and staggered back toward the corner.

"Cpl. Dunham was in the middle of the explosion," Pfc. Miller told a Marine officer weeks later, after he and Lance Cpl. Hampton were evacuated to the U.S. to convalesce. "If it was not for him, none of us would be here. He took the impact of the explosion."

At first, Lance Cpl. Mark Edward Dean, a 22-year-old mortarman, didn't recognize the wounded Marine being loaded into the back of his Humvee. Blood from shrapnel wounds in the Marine's head and neck had covered his face. Then Lance Cpl. Dean spotted the tattoo on his chest -- an Ace of Spades and a skull -- and realized he was looking at one of his closest friends, Cpl. Dunham. A volunteer firefighter back home in Owasso, Okla., Lance Cpl. Dean says he knew from his experience with car wrecks that his friend had a better chance of surviving if he stayed calm.

"You're going to be all right," Lance Cpl. Dean remembers saying as the Humvee sped back to camp. "We're going to get you home."

When the battalion was at its base in Twentynine Palms, Calif., the two Marines had played pool and hung out with Lance Cpl. Dean's wife, Becky Jo, at the couple's nearby home. Once in a while, Lance Cpl. Dean says they'd round up friends, drive to Las Vegas and lose some money at the roulette tables. Shortly before the battalion left Kuwait for Iraq, Lance Cpl. Dean ran short of cash. He says Cpl. Dunham bought him a 550-minute phone card so he could call Becky Jo. He used every minute.

At battalion headquarters in al Qa'im, Chaplain David Slater was in his makeshift chapel -- in a stripped-down Iraqi train car with red plastic chairs as pews -- when he heard an Army Blackhawk helicopter take off. The 46-year-old Navy chaplain from Lincoln, Neb. knew that meant the shock-trauma platoon would soon receive fresh casualties.

Shortly afterward, the helicopter arrived. Navy corpsmen and Marines carried Cpl. Dunham's stretcher 200 feet to the medical tent, its green floor and white walls emitting a rubbery scent, clumps of stethoscopes hanging like bananas over olive-drab trunks of chest tubes, bandages and emergency airway tubes.

The bearers rested the corporal's stretcher on a pair of black metal sawhorses. A wounded Iraqi fighter was stripped naked on the next stretcher -- standard practice for all patients, according to the medical staff, to ensure no injury goes unnoticed. The Iraqi had plastic cuffs on his ankles and was on morphine to quiet him, according to medical personnel who were there.

When a wounded Marine is conscious, Chaplain Slater makes small talk -- asks his name and hometown -- to help keep the patient calm and alert even in the face of often-horrific wounds. Chaplain Slater says he talked to Cpl. Dunham, held his hand and prayed. But he saw no sign that the corporal heard a word. After five minutes or so, he says, he moved on to another Marine.

At the same time, the medical team worked to stabilize Cpl. Dunham. One grenade fragment had penetrated the left side of his skull not far behind his eye, says Navy Cmdr. Ed Hessel, who treated him. A second entered the brain slightly higher and further toward the back of his head. A third punctured his neck.

Cmdr. Hessel, a 44-year-old emergency-room doctor from Eugene, Ore., quickly concluded that the corporal was "unarousable." A calm, bespectacled man, he says he wanted to relieve the corporal's brain and body of the effort required to breathe. And he wanted to be sure the corporal had no violent physical reactions that might add to the pressure on his already swollen brain.

Navy Lt. Ted Hering, a 27-year-old critical-care nurse from San Diego, inserted an intravenous drip and fed in drugs to sedate the corporal, paralyze his muscles and blunt the gag response in his throat while a breathing tube was inserted and manual ventilator attached. The Marine's heart rate and blood pressure stabilized, according to Cmdr. Hessel. But a field hospital in the desert didn't have the resources to help him any further.

So Cpl. Dunham was put on another Blackhawk to take him to the Seventh Marines' base at Al Asad, a transfer point for casualties heading on to the military surgical hospital in Baghdad. During the flight, the corporal lay on the top stretcher. Beneath him was the Iraqi, with two tubes protruding from his chest to keep his lungs from collapsing. Lt. Hering stood next to the stretchers, squeezing a plastic bag every four to five seconds to press air into Cpl. Dunham's lungs.

The Iraqi, identified in battalion medical records only as POW#1, repeatedly asked for water until six or seven minutes before landing, when Cpl. Dunham's blood-drenched head bandage burst, sending a red cascade through the mesh stretcher and onto the Iraqi's face below. After that, the man remained quiet, and kept his eyes and mouth clenched shut, says the nurse, Lt. Hering.

The Army air crew made the trip in 25 minutes, their fastest run ever, according to the pilot, and skimmed no higher than 50 feet off the ground to avoid changes in air pressure that might put additional strain on Cpl. Dunham's brain.

When the Blackhawk touched down at Al Asad, Cpl. Dunham was turned over to new caretakers. The Blackhawk promptly headed back to al Qa'im. More patients were waiting; 10 Marines from the Third Battalion were wounded on April 14, along with a translator.

At 11:45 p.m. that day, Deb and Dan Dunham were at home in Scio, N.Y., a town of 1,900, when they got the phone call all military parents dread. It was a Marine lieutenant telling them their son had sustained shrapnel wounds to the head, was unconscious and in critical condition.

Mr. Dunham, 43, an Air Force veteran, works in the shipping department of a company that makes industrial heaters, and Mrs. Dunham, 44, teaches home economics. She remembers helping her athletic son, the oldest of four, learn to spell as a young boy by playing "PIG" and "HORSE" -- traditional basketball shooting games -- and expanding the games to include other words. He never left home or hung up the phone without telling his mother, "I love you," she says.

The days that followed were filled with uncertainty, fear and hope. The Dunhams knew their son was in a hospital in Baghdad, then in Germany, where surgeons removed part of his skull to relieve the swelling inside. At one point doctors upgraded his condition from critical to serious.

On April 21, the Marines gave the Dunhams plane tickets from Rochester to Washington, and put them up at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md., where their son was going to be transferred. Mrs. Dunham brought along the first Harry Potter novel, so she and her husband could take turns reading to their son, just to let him know they were there.

When Cpl. Dunham arrived that night, the doctors told the couple he had taken a turn for the worse, picking up a fever on the flight from Germany. After an hour by their son's side, Mr. Dunham says he had a "gut feeling" that the outlook was bleak. Mrs. Dunham searched for signs of hope, planning to ask relatives to bring two more Harry Potter books, in case they finished the first one. Doctors urged the Dunhams to get some rest.

They were getting dressed the next morning when the intensive-care unit called to say the hospital was sending a car for them. "Jason's condition is very, very grim," Mrs. Dunham remembers a doctor saying. "I have to tell you the outlook isn't very promising."

She says doctors told her the shrapnel had traveled down the side of his brain, and the damage was irreversible. He would always be on a respirator. He would never hear his parents or know they were by his side. Another operation to relieve pressure on his brain had little chance of succeeding and a significant chance of killing him.

Once he joined the Marines, Cpl. Dunham put his father in charge of medical decisions and asked that he not be kept on life support if there was no hope of recovery, says Mr. Dunham. He says his son told him, "Please don't leave me like that."

The Dunhams went for a walk on the hospital grounds. When they returned to the room, Cpl. Dunham's condition had deteriorated, his mother says. Blood in his urine signaled failing kidneys, and one lung had collapsed as the other was filling with fluid. Mrs. Dunham says they took the worsening symptoms as their son's way of telling them they should follow through on his wishes,.

At the base in al Qa'im, Second Lt. Robinson, 24, of Kenosha, Wis., gathered the men of Cpl. Dunham's platoon in the sleeping area, a spread of cots, backpacks, CD players and rifles, its plywood walls papered with magazine shots of scantily clad women. The lieutenant says he told the Marines of the Dunhams' decision to remove their son's life support in two hours' time.

Lance Cpl. Dean wasn't the only Marine who cried. He says he prayed that some miracle would happen in the next 120 minutes. He prayed that God would touch his friend and wake him up so he could live the life he had wanted to lead.

In Bethesda, the Dunhams spent a couple more hours with their son. Marine Corps Commandant Michael Hagee arrived and pinned the Purple Heart, awarded to those wounded in battle, on his pillow. Mrs. Dunham cried on Gen. Hagee's shoulder. The Dunhams stepped out of the room while the doctors removed the ventilator.

At 4:43 p.m. on April 22, 2004, Marine Cpl. Jason L. Dunham died.

Six days later, Third Battalion gathered in the parking lot outside the al Qa'im command post for psalms and ceremony. In a traditional combat memorial, one Marine plunged a rifle, bayonet-first, into a sandbag. Another placed a pair of tan combat boots in front, and a third perched a helmet on the rifle's stock. Lance Cpl. Dean told those assembled about a trip to Las Vegas the two men and Becky Jo Dean had taken in January, not long before the battalion left for the Persian Gulf. Chatting in a hotel room, the corporal told his friends he was planning to extend his enlistment and stay in Iraq for the battalion's entire tour. "You're crazy for extending," Lance Cpl. Dean recalls saying. "Why?"

He says Cpl. Dunham responded: "I want to make sure everyone makes it home alive. I want to be sure you go home to your wife alive."

[lurker]

Sell it to somebody stupid enough to buy it man... How dare you comment on what Dante Zappala is feeling or what his brother may or may not have believed in??? Get down off your "high horse" dude; the soldiers in Iraq are not dying for you and me. Nor are they protecting "us" from anything... And your British Assessment of Iraqi WMD's has already been shown to be a massive intel blunder.. Wake up and face the truth.... :Roll Eyes

[bejohnson]

Sell it to somebody stupid enough to buy it man... How dare you comment on what Dante Zappala is feeling or what his brother may or may not have believed in??? Get down off your "high horse" dude; the soldiers in Iraq are not dying for you and me. Nor are they protecting "us" from anything... And your British Assessment of Iraqi WMD's has already been shown to be a massive intel blunder.. Wake up and face the truth.... :Roll Eyes

Believe as you wish. But Dante Zappala is not the only person that has lost loved ones in Iraq. Maybe you should go to a couple of funerals and talk to the families. I returned from one last week and did just that. There was nothing but pride in the parents' sorrow and the sister was not swayed in her beliefs that for all the errors that have occurred her brother's death meant something. He did not die in vain.

As for being on a "high horse" you and a couple of others are the only ones posting and trying to cause trouble by soliciting arguments rather than discussion. Your reply is a prime example. Don't worry though; our military will defend your right to be boorish along with everyone else’s rights and freedoms.

[lurker]

Maybe you should go to a couple of funerals and talk to the families. I returned from one last week and did just that.

our military will defend your right to be boorish along with everyone else’s rights and freedoms.

Sure you did..... Did you tell them how they should feel too?? :Nope


It's not the job of our military to defend anyone else's rights and freedoms.. Only the rights and freedoms of "us" American's :Roll Eyes

[abdul2048]

Sure you did..... Did you tell them how they should feel too?? :Nope


It's not the job of our military to defend anyone else's rights and freedoms.. Only the rights and freedoms of "us" American's :Roll Eyes

You sir are one of the most naive, misinformed Americans that I have met. You do not have the faintest understanding of what your country’s role is in the world or do you have any idea how much my people in Iraq appreciate the ouster of Saddam Hussein or the presence of the troops there now. We are embroiled in a civil war that is being led by factions from outside our borders. Al-Qaeda just announced to the world that they were behind the turmoil and bloodshed. If not for the U.S. led coalition the very seeds of freedom and democratic government in my country would be ground asunder.

Wake up. If the terrorist and fundamentalist are not stopped there you will be stopping them on your borders or worse in your own cities. I am a Sunni Muslim and I will tell you that it will not stop unless the serpent is killed. Al-Qaeda must be vanquished from the earth wherever it is found.

Your posts only serve to be derisive and your attitude is shameful. Luckily for you this is the U.S. and you have the right to speak your mind. If you were in the Middle East you would probably have died for your words.

The men and women of the U.S. military are doing a fantastic job under conditions that would make you wish to die. Your dredging up the miscellaneous comments from the extremely small minority and the occasional disheartened relative does nothing to further the cause of liberty and only shows your ignorance on the subject.

As for you not believing the intelligence believe me when I tell you that it is factual and I should know because of my past life in Iraq. Don't be a fool and think you know it all because from the content and tone of your posts you know nothing.

Abdulla T. Hadem
Ex resident of Iraq that one day wish to return to a free and democratic Iraq.

[bejohnson]

Sure you did..... Did you tell them how they should feel too?? :Nope


It's not the job of our military to defend anyone else's rights and freedoms.. Only the rights and freedoms of "us" American's :Roll Eyes

You can do many things but do not call me a liar. You have no idea what I do or the friends and acquaintances that I have. The death toll in Iraq has touched everyone. You should be ashamed of your self to even say I would lie about something as solemn as the death of a fallen soldier.

[lurker]

You sir are one of the most naive, misinformed Americans that I have met. You do not have the faintest understanding of what your country’s role is in the world or do you have any idea how much my people in Iraq appreciate the ouster of Saddam Hussein or the presence of the troops there now. We are embroiled in a civil war that is being led by factions from outside our borders. Al-Qaeda just announced to the world that they were behind the turmoil and bloodshed. If not for the U.S. led coalition the very seeds of freedom and democratic government in my country would be ground asunder.

Wake up. If the terrorist and fundamentalist are not stopped there you will be stopping them on your borders or worse in your own cities. I am a Sunni Muslim and I will tell you that it will not stop unless the serpent is killed. Al-Qaeda must be vanquished from the earth wherever it is found.

Your posts only serve to be derisive and your attitude is shameful. Luckily for you this is the U.S. and you have the right to speak your mind. If you were in the Middle East you would probably have died for your words.

The men and women of the U.S. military are doing a fantastic job under conditions that would make you wish to die. Your dredging up the miscellaneous comments from the extremely small minority and the occasional disheartened relative does nothing to further the cause of liberty and only shows your ignorance on the subject.

As for you not believing the intelligence believe me when I tell you that it is factual and I should know because of my past life in Iraq. Don't be a fool and think you know it all because from the content and tone of your posts you know nothing.

Abdulla T. Hadem
Ex resident of Iraq that one day wish to return to a free and democratic Iraq.

If you want freedom in Iraq go back now and fight for it.. If you (an Iraqi) wanted Saddam out you (the Iraqi people) should have done it on your own.. Oh wait.. it's so much easier to let someone else's son or daughter die for you right.. :Nope Hey but look on the bright side... for you freedom is free... :(

[abdul2048]

If you want freedom in Iraq go back now and fight for it.. If you (an Iraqi) wanted Saddam out you (the Iraqi people) should have done it on your own.. Oh wait.. it's so much easier to let someone else's son or daughter die for you right.. :Nope Hey but look on the bright side... for you freedom is free... :(

There again you demonstrate your naivete. You have no idea why I'm in this country but if you had read my previous post and my other posts on this forum you would be able to ascertain my role here with any understanding of the way things work.

As for the Iraqi people overthrowing Hussein, if you understood how oppressed the people were you would not make that statement. The Iraqi people had only stones and sticks. Saddam had gas, bio-weapons, tanks, artillery and his Special Republican Guard and the Fedayeen. To rise against that monster would have been suicide.

As for my freedom being free. I have lost two brothers and their families plus my father and my mother. My wife has lost her entire family to Hussein. Do not pretend to tell me my freedom is free because it has come at a great price to make sure I arrived here to provide your government with information

You sir and your statements are as insignificant as a sand flea and I refuse to correspond with such ignorance any further.

Good day
Abdulla T. Hadem

[lurker]

Iraqi General: US Helped Us as We Used Chemical Weapons

by Aaron Glantz
BAGHDAD (IPS) - The Iraq issue today may never have arisen if it were not for the support former U.S. president Ronald Reagan gave Saddam Hussein.

Reagan died Saturday June 5 in his Los Angeles home.

Reagan's two terms as President correspond roughly to the Iran-Iraq war, the longest conventional war of the 20th century.

Saddam Hussein invaded Iran on Sept. 22, 1980 with the stated goal of gaining control of the Shatt al-Arab, the river that has formed a border between Iran and Iraq, and which would give Iraq better access to the Persian Gulf.

The U.S. government was then interested in containing Iran, which had just become one of Washington's major enemies after the Islamic Revolution lead by Ayatollah Khomeini. U.S. hostages had been taken, and Ronald Reagan had just been elected partly on the strength of criticizing President Jimmy Carter's inability to free them.

"America and Saddam thought the same way at that time, because America wanted to destroy the revolution in Iran," retired Iraqi Brigadier-General Zekki Daoud Jabber told IPS in an interview in his Baghdad home.

When Reagan was President, Gen. Jabber was in charge of communication and radar for the Iraqi military. Almost from the beginning of the conflict, U.S.-manned AWACS aircraft leased to Saudi Arabia were used to relay intelligence to the Iraqi military.

"It was very important to us," Gen. Jabber told IPS, "because it allowed us to know where Iran's planes were; where they would strike."

More significant assistance for Saddam's regime would come later, but it took Reagan some time to arrange that.

Reagan took the first step in November 1983 when he removed Iraq from the U.S. government's official list of "nations that support international terrorism." That opened the door to full diplomatic and economic cooperation between Iraq and the United States.

The next month he sent an emissary to Baghdad bearing a personal letter for Saddam. That emissary was none other than current Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

A declassified official note at the time read: "Saddam Hussein showed obvious pleasure with the President's letter and Rumsfeld's visits in his remarks."

Rumsfeld also met Saddam's foreign minister Tariq Aziz. According to a State Department memo made available by the National Security Archives in Washington, Rumsfeld told Aziz: "The United States and Iraq share many common interests," and that the Reagan administration had a "willingness to do more" to "help Iraq."

In 1984 Tariq Aziz, now under arrest after being on the list of Iraqis most wanted by the U.S. administration, traveled to Washington and met Ronald Reagan at the White House. Following that meeting, the United States made its intelligence in the Gulf available to Iraq on a regular basis, and set up direct links between the CIA and the U.S. embassy in Baghdad.

Through this time the Reagan administration largely ignored reports that Saddam Hussein was using chemical weapons against the Iranian army and against domestic Kurdish insurgents.

"While condemning Iraq's resort to chemical weapons," a U.S. government press release read, "the United States finds the Iranian regime's intransigent refusal to deviate from its avowed objective of eliminating the legitimate government of Iraq to be inconsistent with accepted norms."

Jabber says the Reagan administration never seriously tried to stop Iraq using chemical weapons. "Everything we did was checked with America," he said. "They knew our policy was to use chemical weapons on the Iranian army when they entered our territory. We told them that and they continued to help us."

As the war dragged on, Saddam's tactics became increasingly more brutal. He launched al-Anfal in northern Iraq, a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing against his own Kurdish population, which – tired of Saddam's oppressive rule – was siding with Iran. That campaign left tens of thousands of Kurds dead. Hundreds of thousands were led out of their villages at gunpoint, and their homes bulldozed behind them.

"I remember very well," recalls Rafat Abdel Mohammed Amin, mayor of Benslawa, a Kurdish refugee camp outside Arbil in northern Iraq. "They came one morning, Saddam's soldiers. They brought the bulldozers to destroy the house the moment we left it. Then they gave us a tent to live in. We were completely surrounded by check-points of the Iraqi Army."

The Reagan administration barely took note of the Anfal campaign. While U.S. forces did nothing to protect Iraqi Kurds, they began to fight directly with Iran. On October 8, 1987 U.S. warships destroyed two Iranian patrol boats in the Persian Gulf. Then, on April 18, 1988 U.S. warships blew up two Iranian oil rigs, sank a frigate and destroyed an Iranian missile boat.

Amin is forgiving. "The U.S.A. supported Saddam because they thought this relation with Saddam would benefit them. Every country does this. Then they changed their mind. They wanted to remove Saddam, so they started a war against him."

But memories of the Reagan administration's support for Saddam linger in northern Iraq where 150,000 Kurdish refugees still live in camps.

Seventeen years after Saddam Hussein gassed her home in Hallabja, packed mud and a canvas tarp still serve as the roof of Aftow Khafood's home in Benslawa refugee camp. "We would like to improve our situation," she says. "When it rains, we are afraid our house will collapse over our heads. We want to return to our homes and live like others in normal houses."

As the eulogizing of President Reagan pours in, Khafood says the only international help she has got has come from the United Nations, which has provided her family with toilet facilities and 200 cinder blocks, which she stacked into makeshift walls.

Inter Press Service

[lurker]

As for the Iraqi people overthrowing Hussein, if you understood how oppressed the people were you would not make that statement. The Iraqi people had only stones and sticks. Saddam had gas, bio-weapons, tanks, artillery and his Special Republican Guard and the Fedayeen. To rise against that monster would have been suicide.

As for my freedom being free. I have lost two brothers and their families plus my father and my mother. My wife has lost her entire family to Hussein. Do not pretend to tell me my freedom is free because it has come at a great price to make sure I arrived here to provide your government with information

But it was ok for the American people to send our sons and daughters to take the "monster" out for you?? :Nope

And what information might that be..???? More bad intel? or lies? :Yea right

[bejohnson]

Digging up old news again. The U.S. support of Iraq and Saddam Hussein during the 1980s is well documented. The U.S. also supported Stalin during WWII. Why don't you bring that up as news?

The support of Iraq in the 1980s was due to the U.S. conflict with Iran and the remaining animosity from the Iranian hostage situation. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

About the only thing you have proved is that we should take decisive action in the Middle East and end the turmoil quickly with whatever means necessary. All of this countries past actions have shaped the world today but our actions in Iraq today are steps in the right direction to allow the people there to determine their own future.

[bejohnson]

But it was ok for the American people to send our sons and daughters to take the "monster" out for you?? :Nope

And what information might that be..???? More bad intel? or lies? :Yea right

Read this thread http://www.3dgameman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21448&page=1&pp=25

Abdul2048 made several posts in that thread that alludes to what he did for the Hussein regime. I'm guessing but it reads like biological or chemical research.

[lurker]

Digging up old news again. The U.S. support of Iraq and Saddam Hussein during the 1980s is well documented. The U.S. also supported Stalin during WWII. Why don't you bring that up as news?
but our actions in Iraq today are steps in the right direction to allow the people there to determine their own future.


Our support for Stalin in WWII was during a time when the world was at war..

The best way to allow the people of Iraq to determine their own future is for the U.S. to leave.... :Nice

[bejohnson]

Our support for Stalin in WWII was during a time when the world was at war..

The best way to allow the people of Iraq to determine their own future is for the U.S. to leave.... :Nice

The world is at war now. The enemy is terrorism and fundamentalist Islamic leaders. This is a world war where the enemy is very diffused but just as real.

If the U.S. leaves now the Al-Qaeda backed insurgence will kill any chance of a free Iraq.

[lurker]

The world is at war now. The enemy is terrorism and fundamentalist Islamic leaders. This is a world war where the enemy is very diffused but just as real.

If the U.S. leaves now the Al-Qaeda backed insurgence will kill any chance of a free Iraq.

No if the world was at war our "allies" would be supporting us in Iraq... Not even the contries of the mid-east support us, let alone our NATO "allies"

If the U.S. left now maybe the Iraqi's would turn to themselves to find their own freedom and type of government... Al-Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until after the U.S. got there.... :Nope

[blpeterson]

Believe as you wish. But Dante Zappala is not the only person that has lost loved ones in Iraq. Maybe you should go to a couple of funerals and talk to the families. I returned from one last week and did just that. There was nothing but pride in the parents' sorrow and the sister was not swayed in her beliefs that for all the errors that have occurred her brother's death meant something. He did not die in vain.

As for being on a "high horse" you and a couple of others are the only ones posting and trying to cause trouble by soliciting arguments rather than discussion. Your reply is a prime example. Don't worry though; our military will defend your right to be boorish along with everyone else’s rights and freedoms.

I was glad you were able to go for Jeremy's service. Don told me he flew you up and back. I wrote to Ed and Cheryl expressing our condolences but for you to go was a great idea. I hope Jason makes the decision to stay stateside and I'm still worried about Amanda; I hope she holds up.

Snugglebear, if anything happens to me please take care of my dad. I know he is a tough old bird but I still worry about him.

Love ya. :kiss :heartbeat :kiss :heartbeat :kiss

[abdul2048]

No if the world was at war our "allies" would be supporting us in Iraq... Not even the contries of the mid-east support us, let alone our NATO "allies"

If the U.S. left now maybe the Iraqi's would turn to themselves to find their own freedom and type of government... Al-Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until after the U.S. got there.... :Nope

Again your ignorance is most disturbing. Al-Qaeda has been begrudgingly involved with Saddam Hussein for several years. One should do research into the first World Trade Center attack to look for the connections. Where do you think much of the money for Al-Qaeda came from? Bin-Laden may be rich but he's not that rich.

The proof is there, all you have to do is accept it. The media and the liberal education system in the U.S. believe they know everything. They, like you, know almost nothing of the complex relationships in the Arab world. The arrogance of the media and the liberal left in this country is most sickening.

[ChKFlores]

Again your ignorance is most disturbing. Al-Qaeda has been begrudgingly involved with Saddam Hussein for several years. One should do research into the first World Trade Center attack to look for the connections. Where do you think much of the money for Al-Qaeda came from? Bin-Laden may be rich but he's not that rich.

The proof is there, all you have to do is accept it. The media and the liberal education system in the U.S. believe they know everything. They, like you, know almost nothing of the complex relationships in the Arab world. The arrogance of the media and the liberal left in this country is most sickening.

Mr. Hadem,

These people are divisive and disillusioned by conspiracy theories and by the liberal agenda. They also lack the common sense and professionalism. What bothers me even more is the way they twist these stories to incite and inflame others into it. I'll admit I go off at times, but these persons have no regard for the lives that have been sacrificed protecting their rights to their opinions and freedom of thought.

[wazman]

Someone please lock thread. It will get no better.

[ChKFlores]

Someone please lock thread. It will get no better.

Closing the thread won't either...they just keep posting new ones anyway.

[egarrard]

Someone please lock thread. It will get no better.Ah, let them alone. They're just having fun. Nobody's started bashing just yet... :devil

[wazman]

Ah, let them alone. They're just having fun. Nobody's started bashing just yet... :devil

I don't agree. These threads go around and around and around for days, and I can't take any more.

I'm gonna have to start using my ignore list with some of these people, I guess. Wonder if there's a way I can ignore entire threads?

[egarrard]

Mr. Hadem,

These people are divisive and disillusioned by conspiracy theories and by the liberal agenda. They also lack the common sense and professionalism. What bothers me even more is the way they twist these stories to incite and inflame others into it. I'll admit I go off at times, but these persons have no regard for the lives that have been sacrificed protecting their rights to their opinions and freedom of thought.It's a Catch-22. They have the right to protest their right to protest their right to protest...ad nauseum...

However goofy it is. In my opinion, of course.

[ChKFlores]

It's a Catch-22. They have the right to protest their right to protest their right to protest...ad nauseum...

However goofy it is. In my opinion, of course.

Is it us or them making the exception? I'm looking at it both ways...

[egarrard]

Is it us or them making the exception? I'm looking at it both ways...They're protesting the action that gave them the right to protest in the first place. It just seems strange to me, and a little short-sighted of them. Blinded by the hatred of Bush that they've been duped into.

Someone complained about the censoring of ideas. I don't think that this is what it is. It's trying to correct a fallacy. Most of the arguments have been either incorrect, or not pertainent to the question put forward. I always try to ask myself, "What if I'm wrong?" I just wish some of the others would do the same.

[wazman]

I'm not trying to censor anything. You automatically assumed that, as you assumed I hate Bush. I do not on both counts.

If you're around children long enough, you will eventually hear this discussion:

"Joey hit me!'
"She hit me first!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"

repeated ad nauseum ad infinitum.

That is what we have here. One side posts something, and the other side disagrees. Then we go back and forth for days about stuff that most people don't even care about.

And I'm tired of it.

I really think it's time we do as Rage3d did and start an offshoot of Off Topic for all news/political/religious threads. That way it's confined.

It doesn't matter to me - I've been lied about/assumed about/told my opinions don't freaking matter enough times in the last year that I don't give two fine rats' asses any more. But it's just gone beyond silly, and is moving into the ridiculous.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but that's how I see it. Of course, ten people will instantly jump in to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't care any more. Cause I come to these boards to use them in the same way everyone else does, and my opinion is as important as anyone else's.

[Bobenis]

Waz,

As Ed McMahon used to say "You are correct sir!" :thumb

[egarrard]

I'm not trying to censor anything. You automatically assumed that, as you assumed I hate Bush. I do not on both counts.Are you talking about my post???

[Maro]

I'm just bored of the War/Bush threads.

The same post just different day
:banghead

[Silent_Death911]

But it was ok for the American people to send our sons and daughters to take the "monster" out for you?? :Nope
Becuase we had the crap the Iraqi people didn't have and could face the regime's crap. Its all just crap. Crap, crap, crap, crap and more crap.

I love how us Americans feel so secure in our little patch of land. We just think we are invincible and can sit here, plunking away at our keyboards whilst innocent people in the Middle East are being killed for what they should have and what we have, wanting freedom.

I am 100% American and I say that with total confidence. I see it happening everyday. People hate what Bush is doing. But, if Bush stood back and played UT2K4 all day, he wouldn't have a damned country to look over anymore. I'm not a pro-Bush or a pro-war person but I think we should have shot their f-ing souls to kingdom come in the first Gulf War like we should have.

These people over in the Gulf deserve what we have. Everyone does. But, not everyone has what we have. Access to kill. Not something we should have but it IS something we have. The Iraqi's have absoutly no means of rising up against the opposition. They'd get shot before they even stood up with that idea.

Our families, men, women, sisters, brothers, whatever believe in that too. They believe that everyone deserves the freedom we have. This is why you enlist in the damn army. So they can weed out those who WANT to make a difference and those who want to sit on their hands all day watching it all unfold on CNN.

You don't like it, fine. You don't like what the men and women of America are doing to make a difference in this world, fine. I, personally, don't give a damn what you think. I think what I think and what I'm thinking is right to me. This was my first, and hopefully, last post in a Iraq/Bush/War thread. I just needed to get that out of my system to all the ignorant Americans.

/steps off soapbox

[Maro]

Becuase we had the crap the Iraqi people didn't have and could face the regime's crap. Its all just crap. Crap, crap, crap, crap and more crap.

I love how us Americans feel so secure in our little patch of land. We just think we are invincible and can sit here, plunking away at our keyboards whilst innocent people in the Middle East are being killed for what they should have and what we have, wanting freedom.

I am 100% American and I say that with total confidence. I see it happening everyday. People hate what Bush is doing. But, if Bush stood back and played UT2K4 all day, he wouldn't have a damned country to look over anymore. I'm not a pro-Bush or a pro-war person but I think we should have shot their f-ing souls to kingdom come in the first Gulf War like we should have.

These people over in the Gulf deserve what we have. Everyone does. But, not everyone has what we have. Access to kill. Not something we should have but it IS something we have. The Iraqi's have absoutly no means of rising up against the opposition. They'd get shot before they even stood up with that idea.

Our families, men, women, sisters, brothers, whatever believe in that too. They believe that everyone deserves the freedom we have. This is why you enlist in the damn army. So they can weed out those who WANT to make a difference and those who want to sit on their hands all day watching it all unfold on CNN.

You don't like it, fine. You don't like what the men and women of America are doing to make a difference in this world, fine. I, personally, don't give a damn what you think. I think what I think and what I'm thinking is right to me. This was my first, and hopefully, last post in a Iraq/Bush/War thread. I just needed to get that out of my system to all the ignorant Americans.

/steps off soapbox

Nice rant!

Not to sound patronising but you do have a mature head on your shoulders Silent!


:thumb

[ChKFlores]

Becuase we had the crap the Iraqi people didn't have and could face the regime's crap. Its all just crap. Crap, crap, crap, crap and more crap.

I love how us Americans feel so secure in our little patch of land. We just think we are invincible and can sit here, plunking away at our keyboards whilst innocent people in the Middle East are being killed for what they should have and what we have, wanting freedom.

I am 100% American and I say that with total confidence. I see it happening everyday. People hate what Bush is doing. But, if Bush stood back and played UT2K4 all day, he wouldn't have a damned country to look over anymore. I'm not a pro-Bush or a pro-war person but I think we should have shot their f-ing souls to kingdom come in the first Gulf War like we should have.

These people over in the Gulf deserve what we have. Everyone does. But, not everyone has what we have. Access to kill. Not something we should have but it IS something we have. The Iraqi's have absoutly no means of rising up against the opposition. They'd get shot before they even stood up with that idea.

Our families, men, women, sisters, brothers, whatever believe in that too. They believe that everyone deserves the freedom we have. This is why you enlist in the damn army. So they can weed out those who WANT to make a difference and those who want to sit on their hands all day watching it all unfold on CNN.

You don't like it, fine. You don't like what the men and women of America are doing to make a difference in this world, fine. I, personally, don't give a damn what you think. I think what I think and what I'm thinking is right to me. This was my first, and hopefully, last post in a Iraq/Bush/War thread. I just needed to get that out of my system to all the ignorant Americans.

/steps off soapbox

WHOA! :Holy Crap :shocking Thank you for standing up for our military forces SD. :thumb :Nice

[Silent_Death911]

Nice rant!

Not to sound patronising but you do have a mature head on your shoulders Silent!


:thumb
Thank you. It's just that I hate seeing our people being disrespected by their own neighbors when they need our support the most. I just really had to get that whole thing out of my system.

BTW: Bush is not MAKING the people of America go to war. The people in the army wanted to defend their country and defend the rights of others. They are standing by and waiting for the call to move out and kick ass. They want to do this. And for this I say we should be supporting the troops and their cause. Saying that us going over there to help some helpless country get it back together is meaningless and stupid is meaningless and stupid in its own light. We ARE making a difference. These people in Iraq are being touched by our kindness and helpfulness. Sure, you hear innocent people being killed and those prision harassments. People make mistakes. We all do. Those you make too many shouldn't be in the army though. We are there to make a difference and help get millions of people back on their feet. Also, there will always be 'bad eggs' that go against the US. That's becuase they were brainwashed by Saddam's regime. I pity those people. They should have the right to live. But, if they threaten us and their own kin, they have to be elimated. It's just war. That's how it works.

Again, our army deserves every ounce of respect from us. If you won't give any, then don't even talk about it. Becuase those who do believe that what we are doing is right see what you're saying, they feel that you are being a 'Benedict Arnold' to them, their country and their neighbors. I find it ok if someone from another country doesn't like what we're doing. They aren't even involved with us, so I could care less (No offense intended). Just show respect. That's all I ask. Respect.

(I needed to get that out of my system too. I'm feeling defend-y today.)

[bejohnson]

As for my freedom being free. I have lost two brothers and their families plus my father and my mother. My wife has lost her entire family to Hussein. Do not pretend to tell me my freedom is free because it has come at a great price to make sure I arrived here to provide your government with information

Sir:

I would like to offer my deepest and sincerest condolences for the loss of so many of your family and loved ones at the hands of that despotic monster Saddam Hussein. The price of freedom is high and the true patriots in any conflict always pay that price. Rest assured that your loss will be remembered in the prayers of my wife and myself.

I would also like to thank you for your contribution to the effort to remove that sadistic dictator and to bring freedom and self-government to the Iraqi people. I, more than most, have an idea of your role and who knows, maybe we may meet someday. Until then, may Allah be with you and your family and may you one day enjoy the peace that is a free Iraq.

Barney E. Johnson

[Maro]

Thank you. It's just that I hate seeing our people being disrespected by their own neighbors when they need our support the most. I just really had to get that whole thing out of my system.

BTW: Bush is not MAKING the people of America go to war. The people in the army wanted to defend their country and defend the rights of others. They are standing by and waiting for the call to move out and kick ass. They want to do this. And for this I say we should be supporting the troops and their cause. Saying that us going over there to help some helpless country get it back together is meaningless and stupid is meaningless and stupid in its own light. We ARE making a difference. These people in Iraq are being touched by our kindness and helpfulness. Sure, you hear innocent people being killed and those prision harassments. People make mistakes. We all do. Those you make too many shouldn't be in the army though. We are there to make a difference and help get millions of people back on their feet. Also, there will always be 'bad eggs' that go against the US. That's becuase they were brainwashed by Saddam's regime. I pity those people. They should have the right to live. But, if they threaten us and their own kin, they have to be elimated. It's just war. That's how it works.

Again, our army deserves every ounce of respect from us. If you won't give any, then don't even talk about it. Becuase those who do believe that what we are doing is right see what you're saying, they feel that you are being a 'Benedict Arnold' to them, their country and their neighbors. I find it ok if someone from another country doesn't like what we're doing. They aren't even involved with us, so I could care less (No offense intended). Just show respect. That's all I ask. Respect.

(I needed to get that out of my system too. I'm feeling defend-y today.)



No probs!

One thing though, apart from a few anonymous posters, Most of us here have no issue and ultimate respect for the soldiers. I always have. If you check back my posts on the War you will see my anger is always directed at the mis-management of the troops and the obtuse decisions of their leaders.

:thumb

[Silent_Death911]

No probs!

One thing though, apart from a few anonymous posters, Most of us here have no issue and ultimate respect for the soldiers. I always have. If you check back my posts on the War you will see my anger is always directed at the mis-management of the troops and the obtuse decisions of their leaders.

:thumb
No targeting done, Maro. I was basically targeting each and every American that opposes the troops and their duties. That only includes a small number of people on the forums but a vast number of people in America.

[egarrard]

No targeting done, Maro. I was basically targeting each and every American that opposes the troops and their duties. That only includes a small number of people on the forums but a vast number of people in America.When are you going to try your hand at running for office? You would be very good at it.

[Maro]

When are you going to try your hand at running for office? You would be very good at it.

Now that is a good idea

[lurker]

No targeting done, Maro. I was basically targeting each and every American that opposes the troops and their duties. That only includes a small number of people on the forums but a vast number of people in America.

What makes you think I oppose the troops???? Show me one post I've made that has been against the troops... Not against the government.. Or the leadership.. Or if someone on the ground messed up.. But against the troops...

[Silent_Death911]

You may not think it but,

But it was ok for the American people to send our sons and daughters to take the "monster" out for you?? :Nope

is opposing the troops. You have to go into the deeper meaning of what you see that you said you oppose the troops. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just using my own interpertation.

Hmmm, how to explain......

They want to do this. And you are opposing their free-will and heart-led mission. If they want to do it, then Good speed to them. Bush had the men and women who wanted to do this and, becuase he had them, he used them becuase he believed in them.

Yes, a little rambly. I need to pack away my computer and chit. The movers are taking my desk and monitor. :Crying But, if any god forsaken mover thinks he's getting my computers, he's got another thing coming... :devil See y'all in a week or so! My next post should be coming from New Jersey. :happywave :wavey

[wazman]

You may not think it but,



is opposing the troops. You have to go into the deeper meaning of what you see that you said you oppose the troops. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just using my own interpertation.

Hmmm, how to explain......

They want to do this. And you are opposing their free-will and heart-led mission. If they want to do it, then Good speed to them. Bush had the men and women who wanted to do this and, becuase he had them, he used them becuase he believed in them.

Yes, a little rambly. I need to pack away my computer and chit. The movers are taking my desk and monitor. :Crying But, if any god forsaken mover thinks he's getting my computers, he's got another thing coming... :devil See y'all in a week or so! My next post should be coming from New Jersey. :happywave :wavey

But they didn't go over there because they wanted to. They went because they were ordered to. Small distinction.

Now, before the entire forum tells me how wrong I am, here's what I mean: they're soldiers. They do what they're ordered to do. Whether they want to go or not personally, their orders say they have to.

I don't want to go to work every day. But I have to. I don't want to do some of the things I have to do at work. But my boss says I have to, so whether I agree personally or not, I have to do it.

Lurker's not opposing anything. How many times were we all told Saddam and Osama are monsters and need to be dealt with?

Now, all 20,000 of you: how wrong am I this time?

[lurker]

But they didn't go over there because they wanted to. They went because they were ordered to. Small distinction.

Now, before the entire forum tells me how wrong I am, here's what I mean: they're soldiers. They do what they're ordered to do. Whether they want to go or not personally, their orders say they have to.

I don't want to go to work every day. But I have to. I don't want to do some of the things I have to do at work. But my boss says I have to, so whether I agree personally or not, I have to do it.

Lurker's not opposing anything. How many times were we all told Saddam and Osama are monsters and need to be dealt with?

Now, all 20,000 of you: how wrong am I this time?

You took the words right out of my mouth... :thumb

[lurker]

You may not think it but,

"But it was ok for the American people to send our sons and daughters to take the "monster" out for you??"

is opposing the troops. You have to go into the deeper meaning of what you see that you said you oppose the troops. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just using my own interpertation.

Hmmm, how to explain......

They want to do this. And you are opposing their free-will and heart-led mission. If they want to do it, then Good speed to them. Bush had the men and women who wanted to do this and, becuase he had them, he used them becuase he believed in them.


Your "interpertations" are wrong.. :Sigh

[ChKFlores]

They're protesting the action that gave them the right to protest in the first place. It just seems strange to me, and a little short-sighted of them. Blinded by the hatred of Bush that they've been duped into.

Someone complained about the censoring of ideas. I don't think that this is what it is. It's trying to correct a fallacy. Most of the arguments have been either incorrect, or not pertainent to the question put forward. I always try to ask myself, "What if I'm wrong?" I just wish some of the others would do the same.

I agree. Unfortunately, they wouldn't until at some point. Too idealistic and nothing practical. Too many inconsistencies and not enough substance... :Nope

[ChKFlores]

Your "interpertations" are wrong.. :Sigh

Prove him wrong. What were your "interpertations"? Were you supporting our troops regardless of the George W. Bush administration decision to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power? Do YOU still support our troops? Just wanting to know...

[lurker]

Prove him wrong. What were your "interpertations"? Were you supporting our troops regardless of the George W. Bush administration decision to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power? Do YOU still support our troops? Just wanting to know...

I support the troops 100%... A soldier is a soldier they follow the orders of their commander in chief... Him I don't support, at least not on his decisions concerning Iraq... It wouldn’t matter if he was a republican or democrat... IMO Afghanistan was where we needing to take the fight... That's were Al-Qaeda was and still is... Sure they are in Iraq now but before the invasion..?? That’s questionable… If we were going to stop Al-Qaeda we should have sent 135,000 troops to Afghanistan… How has invading Iraq stopped terrorist from coming to America to commit murder?? Now they only have to go Iraq. Like I said before... Your dog kills my cat, so to get back at you I kill the neighbors bird... Doesn't make sense does it... :Nope

[Silent_Death911]

Your "interpertations" are wrong.. :Sigh
There's no such thing as a wrong interpertation. Just an opposite interpertition.

[wazman]

There's no such thing as a wrong interpertation. Just an opposite interpertition.

Let's go hypothetical for a moment.

Let's say, hypothetically, that I interpret from your posts, that you are actually a 40-year-old woman from Kansas City.

That interpretation would be wrong, wouldn't it?

[Bobenis]

There's no such thing as a wrong interpertation. Just an opposite interpertition.


Um...that makes absolutely no sense. :Nope

[Silent_Death911]

Let's go hypothetical for a moment.

Let's say, hypothetically, that I interpret from your posts, that you are actually a 40-year-old woman from Kansas City.

That interpretation would be wrong, wouldn't it?
I don't believe in wrong interpertations. There is either a right interpertations or an absurd interpertation.

What you have pointed out my friend would be an absurd interpartation in my mind.

[Silent_Death911]

Um...that makes absolutely no sense. :Nope
Sure it does. Think long and hard about it.

[Bobenis]

Sure it does. Think long and hard about it.


I don't need to because it makes no sense. :Nice

[IanBMW]

I support my troops 100%. I also believe that that brother who wrote that report made a bad desicion writing that......or even thinking what he wrote. His brother volunteered for his country. I am sure he believed in what he was fighting for. His poor brother is prolly rolling in his grave due to his beliefs being downplayed by his very own brother. My god my brother is Anti-War but If I died in combat there would be no way he would talk ****. Just makes me sick. Shame on him.

[wazman]

I don't believe in wrong interpertations. There is either a right interpertations or an absurd interpertation.

What you have pointed out my friend would be an absurd interpartation in my mind.

Semantics.

The absurdity of the interpretation does not negate its rightness or wrongness.

Say I post something and you take it the wrong way. You interpet what I'm saying as an insult to you. I did not mean it that way. You have the wrong interpretation of what I said.

[Silent_Death911]

Semantics.

The absurdity of the interpretation does not negate its rightness or wrongness.

Say I post something and you take it the wrong way. You interpet what I'm saying as an insult to you. I did not mean it that way. You have the wrong interpretation of what I said.
Bah. What the hell am I saying? I'm more messed up then ever becuase of this moving business. Just ignore all the interpertation chit. I'm WAY off the past few days.. But, in a literal sense, it did make sense Bobenis. I'll leave this thread alone now....

[egarrard]

Semantics.

The absurdity of the interpretation does not negate its rightness or wrongness.

Say I post something and you take it the wrong way. You interpet what I'm saying as an insult to you. I did not mean it that way. You have the wrong interpretation of what I said.Congratulations! You just argued the exact opposite of your last post. S_D can't be blamed because you can't follow his logic. The reader is at fault, not the writer. Unless y'all expect everything to be dumbed-down for the ignorant of the world.

Keep posting it as you see it, S_D! You can't read for them. :rofl2

[Tides]

America isn't about helping other countrys, it's not. It has an "i'm better than you and if you're not with us your against us," attitude. I don't think everyone in America is like that, but a lot of the govt is and a lot of people who have responded to me haven't been all that accepting either. Killing a killer only creates more killers. What we've done in Iraq and elsewhere is created more enemies against the US tomorrow. It's sad, but true. Even if our intentions were all noble.

(It's scary that a lot of Nostradamus' predictions are coming true. We can change the future, but the only way to do that is to learn to love ourselves, our friends & family, our neighbors, and anyone else who crosses our path. The government and media are happy to rely on bombarding you with negative images of the world, and pitting you against other people; I hope that changes and I hope to help in any small or big way I can.) Positivity breeds positivity.

I'm sorry your brother passed away, and I'm sorry it had to happen in a war and I'm sorry if I blabbed on too long, but I am passionate about the world. Whoever was bashing this guy for him reaching out and expressing his feelings over his deceased sibling need to chill out and not go off on him about his loss, that's not very loving or accepting at all. It's a period of grief, it's how he FEELS.

[wazman]

Congratulations! You just argued the exact opposite of your last post. S_D can't be blamed because you can't follow his logic. The reader is at fault, not the writer. Unless y'all expect everything to be dumbed-down for the ignorant of the world.

Keep posting it as you see it, S_D! You can't read for them. :rofl2

That was pretty rude.

Then you wonder why people stop coming here, and don't want to post in the threads.

[bejohnson]

America isn't about helping other countrys, it's not. It has an "i'm better than you and if you're not with us your against us," attitude. I don't think everyone in America is like that, but a lot of the govt is and a lot of people who have responded to me haven't been all that accepting either. Killing a killer only creates more killers. What we've done in Iraq and elsewhere is created more enemies against the US tomorrow. It's sad, but true. Even if our intentions were all noble.

(It's scary that a lot of Nostradamus' predictions are coming true. We can change the future, but the only way to do that is to learn to love ourselves, our friends & family, our neighbors, and anyone else who crosses our path. The government and media are happy to rely on bombarding you with negative images of the world, and pitting you against other people; I hope that changes and I hope to help in any small or big way I can.) Positivity breeds positivity.

I'm sorry your brother passed away, and I'm sorry it had to happen in a war and I'm sorry if I blabbed on too long, but I am passionate about the world. Whoever was bashing this guy for him reaching out and expressing his feelings over his deceased sibling need to chill out and not go off on him about his loss, that's not very loving or accepting at all. It's a period of grief, it's how he FEELS.

You need to go back and read the entire thread because no one was bashing Dante Zappala over the death of his brother. In fact the person that posted the article about him and tried to use his circumstance for a political point is the one being taken to task.

BTW if you don't think the U.S. is about helping other countries you have failed world history miserably. Sure there have been plenty of mistakes but all you have to do is look at the 10 years post WWII and all of the various foreign aid programs to see that your statement is just plain wrong.

[lurker]

You need to go back and read the entire thread because no one was bashing Dante Zappala over the death of his brother. In fact the person that posted the article about him and tried to use his circumstance for a political point is the one being taken to task.

Here we go again... How was my post used to make a political point??? Man EVERYTHING with you just has to be political... I post the way I do to give people another view in contrast to some of the stuff that is posted from time to time... Why does it always have to be anti-Bush, anti-war anti-America etc etc..?? A person can post just to post can't they?? Or is any post that is contrary to YOUR views posted for some political reason???

[Bobenis]

You need to go back and read the entire thread because no one was bashing Dante Zappala over the death of his brother. In fact the person that posted the article about him and tried to use his circumstance for a political point is the one being taken to task.

BTW if you don't think the U.S. is about helping other countries you have failed world history miserably. Sure there have been plenty of mistakes but all you have to do is look at the 10 years post WWII and all of the various foreign aid programs to see that your statement is just plain wrong.

10 years post WWII? You mean after they killed 100's of 1000's of people with the 2 bombs and have left radiation poisoning in the soil, even to this day (like DU in Afghanistan and Iraq?)? Are you referring to McArthur? That bugger and his SCAP completely killed Japan's culture in so many ways. All they did was Westernize Japan when so many did not want it. Once again going into a foreign area and dictating what they feel is best for someone else. Thanks to McArthur, you can attribute his SCAP to comfort women, who sexually served the US troops and still do. Not to mention anti union laws etc. Also, now Japan can not arm itself once again but rather relies upon the US for protection when they always have had a fuedalistic society. It is their right to protect themselves but nope, the US won't let them. SCAP was and is a joke. So referring to post WWII and the US, I disagree with your "foreign aid" ideal. Sure there has been some aid to areas but I think it always comes at a price and that price is just too high and wrought with consequences.

[bejohnson]

10 years post WWII? You mean after they killed 100's of 1000's of people with the 2 bombs and have left radiation poisoning in the soil, even to this day (like DU in Afghanistan and Iraq?)? Are you referring to McArthur? That bugger and his SCAP completely killed Japan's culture in so many ways. All they did was Westernize Japan when so many did not want it. Once again going into a foreign area and dictating what they feel is best for someone else. Thanks to McArthur, you can attribute his SCAP to comfort women, who sexually served the US troops and still do. Not to mention anti union laws etc. Also, now Japan can not arm itself once again but rather relies upon the US for protection when they always have had a fuedalistic society. It is their right to protect themselves but nope, the US won't let them. SCAP was and is a joke. So referring to post WWII and the US, I disagree with your "foreign aid" ideal. Sure there has been some aid to areas but I think it always comes at a price and that price is just too high and wrought with consequences.

You forget one thing about both Japan and Germany. They declared war on the U.S. and lost. If we had wanted to completely destroy their two countries we could have. We didn't, we rebuilt both countries and if you ask anyone in those countries that was alive before and during the war you will find a huge amount of support for the U.S. It is only the younger generation that did not live through the horrors of the pre and post war era that think they know everything that take the stand you take.

If the U.S. went back to total isolationism the entire world would scream. Without the aid and support of the U.S. and the economic drive that is supplied by the U.S. economy the entire world would soon become a third world economy and thousands of people would starve.

[Bobenis]

You forget one thing about both Japan and Germany. They declared war on the U.S. and lost. If we had wanted to completely destroy their two countries we could have. We didn't, we rebuilt both countries and if you ask anyone in those countries that was alive before and during the war you will find a huge amount of support for the U.S. It is only the younger generation that did not live through the horrors of the pre and post war era that think they know everything that take the stand you take.

If the U.S. went back to total isolationism the entire world would scream. Without the aid and support of the U.S. and the economic drive that is supplied by the U.S. economy the entire world would soon become a third world economy and thousands of people would starve.


You mean the end of pseudo slavery and corporatism/sweatshop labour? Hooray! :luxhello It is not the US economy per say that is distributing food and supplies to LDC's (Lesser Developed Countries - we don't say 3rd world anymore man) but rather NGO's who do this.

Also, I have many friends in Japan and their parents feel differently than what you seem to think about McArthur and the US occupation. If I were you, I would not assume because it only makes you look less credible. Did you live in Japan during these times? Have you spoken with many Japanese who lived through the horrors of WWII and the US occupation? I have with several in Japan and they do not feel happy towards the US for it, sorry to say. Quit believeing all the biased patriotic history books written in the US man and see the larger, truthful picture here.

[bejohnson]

Here we go again... How was my post used to make a political point??? Man EVERYTHING with you just has to be political... I post the way I do to give people another view in contrast to some of the stuff that is posted from time to time... Why does it always have to be anti-Bush, anti-war anti-America etc etc..?? A person can post just to post can't they?? Or is any post that is contrary to YOUR views posted for some political reason???

BULLSH*T! You posted that to try to make a political statement. I have no problem with a political statement but to use a family's grief to try to make your point is despicable. Describing the incident in the third person would be fine but to use names and to try to assign the grief of the brother as something that affects all families the same is wrong.

You or the brother have no idea what Sherwood Baker's thoughts and ideals were? The fact that he was serving says volumes to his character. The fact that he thought enough to insure his life for $250,000 shows that he understood the risk and was responsible enough to think of his wife and her needs. From the brother's remarks, I'm lead to believe that it wasn't so much about the brother’s grief than it’s about the money. That's as far as I will go with that train of thought because that is just my opinion.

Now I have a few questions for you. You know or think you know a good bit about my wife and me, have you ever served? Have you ever been in a “hot” zone? Have you ever had to take a life? What exactly are your credentials other than a concerned citizen to question the actions of the military? (BTW In which country do you claim citizenship?) Do you have some expertise that gives you more insight into the situation than the people that are in the field with the best intelligence that’s available? I’ve put forth all that I can about my credentials let’s here of yours.

[bejohnson]

You mean the end of pseudo slavery and corporatism/sweatshop labour? Hooray! :luxhello It is not the US economy per say that is distributing food and supplies to LDC's (Lesser Developed Countries - we don't say 3rd world anymore man) but rather NGO's who do this.

Also, I have many friends in Japan and their parents feel differently than what you seem to think about McArthur and the US occupation. If I were you, I would not assume because it only makes you look less credible. Did you live in Japan during these times? Have you spoken with many Japanese who lived through the horrors of WWII and the US occupation? I have with several in Japan and they do not feel happy towards the US for it, sorry to say. Quit believeing all the biased patriotic history books written in the US man and see the larger, truthful picture here.

I have many Japanese friends from that era and the first generation after the war. I also know several internees from the camps for the Japanese here. And yes I've been in Japan several times for as long as three months at a time. I've been in 119 different countries.

[Bobenis]

Hai, wakarimasu. Cool. I lived there as well for 2 years. Loved it. I have been to many a counrty as well.

[And|]

Now I have a few questions for you. You know or think you know a good bit about my wife and me, have you ever served? Have you ever been in a “hot” zone? Have you ever had to take a life?

When, and where did you serve? And what is your bodycount? Sorry, now Im just curious.

[bejohnson]

When, and where did you serve? And what is your bodycount? Sorry, now Im just curious.

I was a contract DOD employee from 1975 - 1992 and I have personally been responsible for more than ten deaths. I mentioned this in another thread. It's nothing to be proud of but when it's you or your men or them there is no choice. The where is classified.

[And|]

I think i will choose to believe that.

I some strange way, your ... strong patiotism you posses is starting to show its true value. I do understand your love for your country, if you served for that long.

You should be proud of yourself in that manor that you served your country. I respect that... dearly.

[lurker]

BULLSH*T! You posted that to try to make a political statement.

So now you know what I think to?? As well as everyone else on the planet??? :hail :Yea right I posted it... but you read it and saw a political statement.. Face it man you just go off on anyone who's views are different that yours... sad :Nope

[bejohnson]

Hai, wakarimasu.

I'm glad you understand. :KICK ASS That's one of the few phrases I still remember. :rofl2

[bejohnson]

So now you know what I think to?? As well as everyone else on the planet??? :hail :Yea right I posted it... but you read it and saw a political statement.. Face it man you just go off on anyone who's views are different that yours... sad :Nope

There are plenty of people that will disagree with you on this and other things. You still haven't answered the questions.

[wazman]

1234567890

:cool_shad

[Maro]

If the U.S. went back to total isolationism the entire world would scream. Without the aid and support of the U.S. and the economic drive that is supplied by the U.S. economy the entire world would soon become a third world economy and thousands of people would starve.


The Entire world?
:spin

[wazman]

The Entire world?
:spin

The entire world.

Well... Not really.

Probably not many people would care.

I've said a few times we should stop being so generous. We're the only country that fights wars and then turns around and tries to help the people out. Other countries fight wars to take over the countries they fight in - that's why most wars are fought. Like when we fought the war for our independence from England - England didn't turn around and say "Oh, here you go. Here's all this money and aid." No - they said "Bugger off then."

That's what I think the US should do. If we're gonna fight and destory buildings and do all that, we shouldn't then turn around and try to play the hero by sending all the aid over. What message does that send?

[bejohnson]

The Entire world?
:spin

For the most part yes. Look at the size of the U.S. economy vs. the rest of the world and also how much the world's economy is linked to the U.S. The point I'm making is one will not function without the other. If the U.S. was removed from the equation the entire world would suffer drastically and so would the U.S.

The only nations that would not suffer are those that have third world economies now. They basically have little to lose.

[Maro]

Yes but it is a rather daft statement. It would mean major econiomic hardship to the US as well - they are the worlds major importer of goods/produce. Whilst they could cope in the long run it would take years to adapt - about the same as it would for the rest fo the world to re-allocate their exports amongst themselves.

The American people would not stand for the likely drop in their standard of living.

Yes America could become Isolationist Politically but not Economically - they are inextricably linked to the rest of the worlds economy.

:thumb

P.s. Waz, it is not just America that fights. The UK has proportionally more troops abroad than the USA - don't forget them. AS much as the French get pilloried for their fries, they are the first into most of the African countries that suffer upheaval.

[Bobenis]

For the most part yes. Look at the size of the U.S. economy vs. the rest of the world and also how much the world's economy is linked to the U.S. The point I'm making is one will not function without the other. If the U.S. was removed from the equation the entire world would suffer drastically and so would the U.S.

The only nations that would not suffer are those that have third world economies now. They basically have little to lose.


Yes true but the US economy relies heavily upon the foreign market. With the WTO and sweatshop labour, most of the economy comes from that. So if these foreign countries decided to stop that tomorrow the US economy would crumble. Thus the US would have to set up more business owned and operated by Americans, therefore these people would have to be paid more (US minimum wages etc.) and that would in turn increase the market value of the goods in order to turn a profit. That would equal less people buying the goods due to increased costs. So essentially it is the other way around is it not? :thumb

[Maro]

It would be a brave President who made that decision - he would not see out his term

[Bobenis]

The entire world.

Well... Not really.

Probably not many people would care.

I've said a few times we should stop being so generous. We're the only country that fights wars and then turns around and tries to help the people out. Other countries fight wars to take over the countries they fight in - that's why most wars are fought. Like when we fought the war for our independence from England - England didn't turn around and say "Oh, here you go. Here's all this money and aid." No - they said "Bugger off then."

That's what I think the US should do. If we're gonna fight and destory buildings and do all that, we shouldn't then turn around and try to play the hero by sending all the aid over. What message does that send?


And the US isn't fighting wars for other agendas hey? You believe the govt are really wanting to help people out huh? You think they had huge compassion for the Iraqis and went in there to help liberate those people hey? Then why was it not done sooner than now? Ask yourself something...If they want to really help people out, why are they not helping out Africa and all those dying of AIDS and the millions of orphans left as a result?????

[wazman]

And the US isn't fighting wars for other agendas hey? You believe the govt are really wanting to help people out huh? You think they had huge compassion for the Iraqis and went in there to help liberate those people hey? Then why was it not done sooner than now? Ask yourself something...If they want to really help people out, why are they not helping out Africa and all those dying of AIDS and the millions of orphans left as a result?????

I don't care why they're fighting them. My post was asking why we send aid after we fight. School bullies don't say "Hey, let me help you bandage those cuts and bruises" after they beat up a kid. Boxers don't walk each other to the first aid station and send each other Get Well Soon cards. Why does the US spend all that time and money? No other country does.

[Bobenis]

I don't care why they're fighting them. My post was asking why we send aid after we fight. School bullies don't say "Hey, let me help you bandage those cuts and bruises" after they beat up a kid. Boxers don't walk each other to the first aid station and send each other Get Well Soon cards. Why does the US spend all that time and money? No other country does.


Boxers hug each other after a fight and congratulate each other as well. That is a bad example. Most are good friends outside of the ring.

Oh, and Canada is still in Afghanistan helping out the people there and giving/sending aid. They are dealing with what the US left behind. They are always into helping out and giving aid. I.E. Bosnia, Yugoslavia, etc. So nope, you are wrong. The all mighty superior US isn't the only saviours as you see it.

[wazman]

Boxers hug each other after a fight and congratulate each other as well. That is a bad example. Most are good friends outside of the ring.

Oh, and Canada is still in Afghanistan helping out the people there and giving/sending aid. They are dealing with what the US left behind. They are always into helping out and giving aid. I.E. Bosnia, Yugoslavia, etc. So nope, you are wrong. The all mighty superior US isn't the only saviours as you see it.

First of all, I didn't know that Canada was helping anyone out. I only know US history, not Canadian. So I was wrong, but I never said the "all mighty superior US", as you put it, were in any way saviors. I just made a mistake.

Second of all. You have not answered my point. Why is anyone giving aid? Let them rebuild.

Third of all... No. Forget it. Your attitude's not getting me banned.

[pattyporkloin]

Sell it to somebody stupid enough to buy it man... How dare you comment on what Dante Zappala is feeling or what his brother may or may not have believed in??? Get down off your "high horse" dude; the soldiers in Iraq are not dying for you and me. Nor are they protecting "us" from anything... And your British Assessment of Iraqi WMD's has already been shown to be a massive intel blunder.. Wake up and face the truth.... :Roll Eyes

And, my little Muslim friend, what is this "truth" of which you propagate?

[Bobenis]

First of all, I didn't know that Canada was helping anyone out. I only know US history, not Canadian. So I was wrong, but I never said the "all mighty superior US", as you put it, were in any way saviors. I just made a mistake.

Second of all. You have not answered my point. Why is anyone giving aid? Let them rebuild.

Third of all... No. Forget it. Your attitude's not getting me banned.


I appolgize for saying your wrong. I should have said in my opinion you are wrong. FOr that I appologize. I never meant to imply that you said the all mighty superior US but it seems that is the way everyone is implying it. I.E. without them we are all doomed. I think the giving aid part is meant to be out of compassion. I am sure for some it is for almost propaganda issues but who knows. Ya know?

[bejohnson]

Here is a link to the history of the Marshall Plan. (http://www.marshallfoundation.org/about_gcm/marshall_plan.htm) The Marshall Plan was the framework to rebuild Europe after WWII.

Here is the link to The United States Agency for International Development (http://www.usaid.gov/) this is the government agency that oversees the U.S. aid now.

I agree with Wazman. Why should we give aid to people that despise us and want us dead. Why should we help people that will not stand with us? Read this link (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp) and see how the nations complain when we cut back even though we are giving more than ever. They say we are not giving our fair share. Sounds just like some of the Socialist Democrats complaining about the taxes on the wealthy. These people believe that the U.S. has an obligation to help other nations.

The U.S. has only an obligation to it's own citizens. I think we should just stop all aid for 5 years and use the money in this country to solve our many social problems and this would also allow us to still maintain a national defense second to none. I'll bet after 5 years the nations that depend on the U.S. aid would see things in a different light.

[Bobenis]

And what of foreign investment then? The US would have to drop out of all of that along with being part of the WTO, NAFTA, Free Trade, Etc. Might as well drop out of the UN as well just like NATO. Your economy would falter and go down the drain I am afraid to say. Within 5 years all your forests would be gone, your water gone, food gone, and how would you drive your cars without foreign oil/gas? Mmmmm...ok.

[lurker]

And, my little Muslim friend, what is this "truth" of which you propagate?

That's nice... Nothing like resorting to religious racism :Nope

[t00lb0x]

That's nice... Nothing like resorting to religious racism :Nope

He does that a lot. You just have to ignore him. There are those with opposing views who are tactful and good debate, then there are him. He resorts to **** throwing.