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egarrard
02-15-2005, 11:05 AM
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/05/01/64800164.shtml?Element_ID=64800164
A Wilson County child-court judge has been ordering foreign-born women to learn English for the good of their children — an action that some regard as unconstitutional.

In a case this week, Judge Barry Tatum insisted that an 18-year-old Mexican woman take language classes and consider using birth control.

Tatum said his admonition didn't come out of malice or the urge to Americanize an immigrant. Instead, the judge said he worried that the woman's 2-year-old daughter would miss out on opportunities because of her mother's inability to communicate in English.

''A parent has the right to raise a child the way they see fit, but government gets involved at some point,'' Tatum said. ''I'm concerned about the civil rights of the child and what will happen to her.''

The immigrant woman and her American-born toddler both entered the state's custody in 2003.

A complaint was made to state child protection officials, accusing the mother of neglecting her baby by not following up on immunizations and other shots, said K. Danielle Edwards, a spokeswoman with the state Department of Children's Services.

Neither Tatum nor Edwards would identify the woman or her child, saying that identities of people involved in DCS and juvenile court cases are confidential.

Tatum said the written order in the case hadn't been filed yet and he couldn't recall whether his direction that the mother learn English was merely a suggestion or carried the legal weight of an official court order.

But local civil rights attorney Jerry Gonzalez said the latest case sounded ominously similar to another recent order issued by Tatum — a decision that Gonzalez is appealing.

In that case, Gonzalez said, Tatum ordered a Mexican woman in a child neglect case last year to learn basic English within six months. If she didn't comply, the lawyer said, a hearing was to be held to consider terminating the mother's parental rights to her 11-year-old daughter.

''Ordering a woman to learn English or lose her child, that's blatantly unconstitutional,'' Gonzalez said. ''The First Amendment allows all of us to speak whatever language we choose to speak. There's nothing compelling us to speak English, to learn English or be able to write English.''

He declined to present a copy of the order, saying the documents were sealed in juvenile court and that he could be held in contempt if he shared the document.

Judge Tatum said he could not immediately remember the case Gonzalez referred to because of the volume of cases that move through his courtroom. But, he said, he has issued similar English-training orders in three to five other cases.

He said the mother's ability to learn English in this week's case would not directly influence her custody over the toddler.

''There are no repercussions in terms of termination of parental rights,'' Tatum said.

Still, civil libertarians called any ruling that included such a provision unconstitutional and outrageous.

''This is clearly not acceptable, and we're worried that the judge has gone over the line,'' said Hedy Weinberg, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee. ''A judge should not require a parent to learn English to have access to their child, and the government should not be telling parents how to communicate with their children.''

ACLU officials are considering filing a complaint against the judge or seeking to place a monitor in his courtroom, she said. Weinberg wasn't aware of similar cases in other areas, but acknowledged that they may be happening ''under the radar screen.''

Such rulings violate the constitutional requirement for equal protection and equal treatment under the law, she said.

''There's no relationship between being a good parent and speaking English,'' Weinberg said.

Luis Bustillos, a probation officer in Davidson County who also considers himself a Hispanic activist, said he didn't disagree with Tatum's ruling. ''It's not controversial,'' he said. ''As long as they are with their own people, there's no need for them to learn English. When they go work, they need to communicate in English.''

Bustillos said he came to this country in 1964 from Bolivia.

''It was very hard for me when I came here to learn English,'' he said. ''We need to bring the message to the community that if they (learn English), they will improve their status.''Is this guy right? :What the

wazman
02-15-2005, 11:16 AM
Judges... They're always good for a laugh.

This guy has his judicial powers confused with his "sittin' in the bar with his buddies" powers. Suggest to someone they should learn English to function better in American society? Sure. But when it's a judge, in court, trying to (or making it look like he's trying to) force people to do so or face serious consequences, then that's going too far.

And the thing of this is, these people are so frightened of even being in a courtroom that they'll take anything the judge says as Holy Writ - they're so afraid one wrong move or statement, and they'll be jailed or deported or whatevr. So this woman probably thinks it's normal for people in power to do stuff like this.

Bottom line - no, he's not right. If he would have said it outside the courtroom, that's one thing. It wouldn't be in very good taste, but that's how people are. But definitely he's not right saying it on the bench, in a courtroom, exercising the judicial powers and representing the state he's a judge in.

2JSC
02-15-2005, 11:39 AM
Ya know - here in Arizona, its one thing now to see a few people speaking spanish and no english(in the majority of Phoenix/Glendale), but for us to bend ourselves around backwards to help them(communicate or even find work) instead of them helping themselves is kinda wrong. If they come here, from where ever and expect to "live a better life" why not help yourself and learn the prodominate language. If you drive not even a mile away from my ouse in the mornings, you'll see Broadway Rd lined with Mexican/Americans(if they are all leagal) waiting for some guy in a truck to show up for work in the morning that will paythem less than minimal wage. It's really sad that they come here and do this. Its a really hot topic with me and everyone here in the SouthWest, but its also really difficult to talk about it to others if you havn't lived here.

But - I'd have to say that the judge was somewhat right. If the lady wanted to help her kid out in the long run, she would learn english(not master it but learn it). It makes a world of difference down here and I'd deffinatly have more respect for them if they did it. But since 85-92% of the hispanics that live here choose not to and do yard work for the rest of thier lives making $4/hr, so be it.

Even though I was born here and speak english, I still have to learn and work for everything that I want. It's not gonna be handed to me. If they really want a better life, get some schooling, learn the language, and help yourself.

eire1274
02-15-2005, 11:41 AM
Judge Barry Tatum insisted that an 18-year-old Mexican woman take language classes and consider using birth control.
What the... since when is reproductive habits the prerogative of the court? This isn't Communist China, for God's sake.

CyberGuy
02-15-2005, 11:44 AM
The U.S. has one official language. English. It is the language that all residents are expected to understand. Just as English and (supposedly) French are the two languages everyone is expected at least undwerstand the rudiments of here in Canada.

Thing is, this kind of stuff goes on all the time. These are not isolated cases.

In child custody or negligence cases how often have you heard of a judge ordering a parent to have councilling, anger management, psych evauations or check themselves into a rehab clinic? Happens all the time. Are those decisions unconstitutional or is it because the courts are concerned for the welfare of the kids? Why is learning the official language of the country you live in a bad thing? It can only benefit your life to understand the people around you. The judge in all of these cases above did not forbid the parents from speaking in their native tongue. He only suggested (or in the neglect case - ordered) the parent to learn at least the basics the official language.

The point is that most, if not all immigrants to a country will learn the official language. Some faster than others, but 99% of them will eventually. It is inevitable.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

CyberGuy
02-15-2005, 11:50 AM
What the... since when is reproductive habits the prerogative of the court? This isn't Communist China, for God's sake.

In this case, I believe the judge was offering advice rather than a ruling the woman to use contraception. The judge is seeing a very young 18 year old woman with a 2-year old kid (suggesting she had the kid at 16)and offering some sensible advice. I would not be suprised to see the judge to offer the same birth control advice to any 18 year old girl, regardless of skin color or spoken language, in the same situation.

wazman
02-15-2005, 11:57 AM
But when does offering advice become an abuse of power? It does if it's someone with that much power over you who could change your life in an instant.

wazman
02-15-2005, 12:03 PM
In child custody or negligence cases how often have you heard of a judge ordering a parent to have councilling, anger management, psych evauations or check themselves into a rehab clinic? Happens all the time. Are those decisions unconstitutional or is it because the courts are concerned for the welfare of the kids? Why is learning the official language of the country you live in a bad thing? It can only benefit your life to understand the people around you. The judge in all of these cases above did not forbid the parents from speaking in their native tongue. He only suggested (or in the neglect case - ordered) the parent to learn at least the basics the official language.

Because ordering counselling or those other things are for the welfare of everyone involved. People could end up hurt or dead if the judge doesn't recommend those things, and then somebody'd say he was neglectful. Ordering someone to learn a language is not in any way close to the same kind of thing.

Look at it this way - let's say you go to court for a speeding ticket, and the judge orders you to learn Klingon, or he'll take your license away. Outrageous? Not really. The court has no right saying "Learn English or we'll take your child away." If it isn't a law, the judge can't make someone do it just because he feels like it that day.

This judge is acting foolish and going beyond the bounds of his position. We all agree that it helps to learn the language of the country you live in - I'm not debating that. I think people should be able to speak English if they want to live in America, just like all of us do. But until it's a law that everyone in this country must speak English, a judge that orders someone to do so is out of line and abusing his power.

eire1274
02-15-2005, 12:32 PM
In this case, I believe the judge was offering advice rather than a ruling the woman to use contraception. The judge is seeing a very young 18 year old woman with a 2-year old kid (suggesting she had the kid at 16)and offering some sensible advice. I would not be suprised to see the judge to offer the same birth control advice to any 18 year old girl, regardless of skin color or spoken language, in the same situation.
If he wants to offer advice, he needs to do it outside of a courtroom. As a judge (in this case), he speaks on LAW. Advice outside of law is not proper in that position.

wazman
02-15-2005, 12:40 PM
If he wants to offer advice, he needs to do it outside of a courtroom. As a judge (in this case), he speaks on LAW. Advice outside of law is not proper in that position.

Exactly. How would you feel if you were in that situation?

Having children at 16 or not speaking English aren't laws, and a judge has no business giving out adivce on things that aren't laws. He can advise someone to get marriage counseling, as it could legally apply in a divorce proceeding. But not in this case.

Raedwulf
02-15-2005, 04:36 PM
I guess where the line should be drawn is this:

If the judge 'suggests' to a defendant to learn the official language while court is in session... it's an order(even if he only means a suggestion)
If he defines the statement, in advance as 'being off the record' it is only that a suggestion

It would then be up to the defendent to do with the advice as he/she wishes

It was mentioned before, the woman was probably scared as hell and only heard the words as an order, but some lawyer sitting in the stands probably looked at his bankbook just then and thought .... HEY!!!! :food
:devil

I agree with the judge, he had to make some comment regarding language skills, if not for the woman's benefit, at least the child's, it will have to attend school in the US, afterall

I think back to my first day of school... my grasp of the English language was spotty at best, my parents and their friends only spoke German around the house, even if they could converse fairly well in English. When I started school, they chose to at least go half and half so I wouldn't fall behind, it worked