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egarrard
07-15-2005, 03:10 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/14/MNGR7DNPOQ1.DTL&type=printable
Vic Germany thought registering a federal trademark for San Francisco's iconic Dykes on Bikes organization would be no problem. After all, the nonprofit lesbian motorcycle group has become internationally known for riding in the lead position at San Francisco's pride parade every year for nearly three decades.

Instead, the group has spent a humiliating two years slogging through the swampland of trademark law, with no end in sight, said Germany, president of the San Francisco Women's Motorcycle Contingent, a.k.a. Dykes on Bikes.

Twice, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has rejected the Dykes' application, on the grounds that "dyke" is vulgar, offensive and "scandalous." Patent office attorneys even point to Webster's dictionary, which says dyke is "often used disparagingly."

"The examining attorney found it to be offensive to a significant portion of the lesbian community," said Jessie Roberts, a trademark administrator with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. "And we're also looking out for the sensitivities of the general public more than that of a specific applicant."

The applicants, in this case, prefer to call themselves dykes.

"We self-identify as dykes on bikes," said Germany, a 48-year-old San Francisco environmental consultant. "To us, (the government's objection) is completely absurd."

The push to codify "Dykes on Bikes" started two years ago when members of the San Francisco organization heard that a Wisconsin woman wanted to start a for-profit venture that would include a clothing line -- leathers and such - - using "Dykes on Bikes" as its label.

"That's not what we're about," said Soni Wolf, 56, longtime secretary for the Dykes on Bikes and a pride parade participant since the late 1970s. "That word has been used for years to tear us down. And we said, 'OK, we're going to take it back.' "

The women call themselves "dykes" for the same reason many gays have laid claim to "queer" -- to defang a word that has long been a slur.

"I cannot imagine a more ironic twist of thinking than to judge this reclaimed badge of honor as insulting to the very community who has created its power," Joan Nestle, co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives, wrote in a declaration supporting the Dykes on Bikes' trademark request. "Lesbians do not need to be protected from their own cultural creations, their own transformations of stigmas."

Cartoonist Alison Bechdel told the patent office that her 22-year-old strip, Dykes to Watch Out For -- which has sold 300,000 copies in collections worldwide -- "has uprooted the word 'dyke' from its negative connotations and planted it in a new context where it has flourished as a signifier for lesbians who are confident and open about their identity."

The Dykes argue that they are succeeding in weaving the term into the cultural fabric. Roaring up Market Street on their motorcycles before thousands of onlookers at pride parades, San Francisco's Dykes on Bikes have paved the way for a dozen-plus similar groups elsewhere. There are Dykes Planning Tykes parents groups, a "Dyke TV" cable access show, and a site for "the Web-savvy dyke" called Technodyke.com.

The federal paper-shuffling might seem superfluous to any Bay Area resident who has heard the street chant, "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it." But "queer," a longtime slur for male homosexuals, is different -- at least in the eyes of the federal trademarkers.

In November, the patent office registered a trademark on behalf of the Bravo Network for the hit television show "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."

"So what's the difference between 'queer' and 'dyke'?" said Brooke Oliver, the Mission District attorney who is handling the Dykes' case.

Germany pointed out that the case for "Queer Eye" was supported by a deep- pocketed television network. "And we're a nonprofit group full of working- class women," she said.

The patent office's Roberts said she was unfamiliar with the "Queer" case but that apparently "queer" was deemed not to have been as vulgar as "dyke."

Some of the women involved in the "dyke" case took the patent office rejection personally. For them, it reignited painful memories -- some not too distant -- of shouted insults labeling them "bull dykes."

Germany, 48, said she heard that slur a lot as she was growing up in Marin County. She still hears it from hecklers who see the rainbow sticker on the back of her black motorcycle helmet.

Her eyes filled with tears as described how her mother now rides with her at the front of the gay and lesbian pride parade.

"She's one proud mama," Germany said. "She's proud of who I am. That's why, when I got that letter from the federal government denying this, it felt like a hate letter."

Oliver recruited the National Center for Lesbian Rights in San Francisco, which asked scholars, linguists and activists to describe how the word "dyke" had evolved over the past 40 years. Filled with more than two dozen declarations of Harvard-trained scholars, nationally recognized psychologists and linguists, the submission is a lesbian history lesson.

"What might have been true 10 or 15 years ago with respect to the implications of the word 'dyke' as applied to lesbians has continued to evolve, " said Ronald Butters, a Duke University English professor who served as the New Oxford American Dictionary's expert adviser on homosexual terms.

Shara Sand, a New York clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Yeshiva University, wrote, "My clients often speak of the 'dyke drama' in their lives, refer to themselves as 'strong dykes,' working for the 'dyke cause,' and loving being a 'diesel dyke.' "

Patent office administrator Roberts is sympathetic, yet holds to the responsibilities of her agency.

"Yes, there is sometimes a difference between what is going on in the street currently," she said. "But what we have to do is apply federal law."

The patent office rejected the Dykes' reapplication in May. Examiners found nothing new that was "significant or compelling" enough to make them change their decision.

The Dykes are appealing the decision to a trial panel in the office. For Wolf, it will be one more step in the effort to reclaim "dyke," almost 30 years after her first ride down Market Street.

Politics and culture aside, there's a reason "Dykes on Bikes" resonates so much with people, Wolf said.

"It rhymes," she deadpanned. "Just kind of rolls off the tongue."

Is this right?

wazman
07-15-2005, 03:25 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/14/MNGR7DNPOQ1.DTL&type=printable


Is this right?

I dunno. I think my lesbian friends refer to themselves that way, but I don't. I'd feel weird calling any lesbian that.

pan
07-15-2005, 04:07 PM
I don't see a problem with them wanting to trademark the name.

Doesn't surprise me, with the current politaical environment in the US, that the request was turned down though.

I guess the trademark office saw it the same class as the term 'nigger'. It is OK if african americans to use the term with respect to each other, but if a white persom uses the term he is automatically a racist reguardless of how the term was used. The trademark office must always decide in the favor of political correctness. (That's not to say that if your rich they can't be persuaded to see things your way.)

Ira
07-17-2005, 03:12 PM
I guess the trademark office saw it the same class as the term 'nigger'. It is OK if african americans to use the term with respect to each other, but if a white persom uses the term he is automatically a racist reguardless of how the term was used.


Could you tell me how exactly a white person could ever use the term "nigger" respectfully speaking to or about a black person? :banghead
(Hint: American History)

bejohnson
07-17-2005, 04:10 PM
Could you tell me how exactly a white person could ever use the term "nigger" respectfully speaking to or about a black person? :banghead
(Hint: American History)

Only in a private conversation with a good friend and one of the friends is black. Brandi and I have such a friend who happens to be in the U.S. Air Force. He gets hurt sometimes when you refer to him as anything else.

I ask him once why he wasn't offended and he said something to this effect," It's not what you call me but how you respect me. You can call me anything as long as I know you respect me and accept me as an equal." He went on to say, "People are too thin skinned. You and I can fool around and call each other anything. I know where you are coming from and I know you consider me a friend. It also depends on the inflection. If you call me a N***** while laughing and kidding it's one thing. Now if you called me that with murder in your eyes it's something else."

A little story about him and Brandi, he saw Brandi at the Pentagon one afternoon. She was getting a drink of water and he came up behind her with a couple of other Air Force types. Don is an E-9, Command Chief Master Sergeant. This is very senior enlisted. Brandi is an O-6, which is a Senior Line Officer. Brandi stands 5'-8" and Don is 6'-8" so he towers over her. She weighs 138 –142 lbs. And Don will weigh 275 lbs. or more.

He leaned over and said where only she and the other guys with him could hear and said, "Hey there little white girl." Brandi recognized his voice, spun around, looked him in the eye and said, "Hey BOY." This is as bad of an insult as the other word if used wrong. The other two Air Force types were looking for a rock to crawl under when Don and Brandi turned to them and laughed. Don had to explain to them that a war wasn't starting and that he hadn't just thrown his career down the chute.

Though a word may be totally inappropriate in public, between friends the rules are what the friends wish them to be.


BTW here is a short history of the word. Link (http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2420/Nigger_the_word_a_brief_history.)

Ira
07-17-2005, 04:42 PM
That's more the exception than the rule, don't you think? I can tell you from my experience that no black person I've ever been acquainted to or have been friends with, appreciated the term at all... :Nope

bejohnson
07-17-2005, 05:02 PM
That's more the exception than the rule, don't you think? I can tell you from my experience that no black person I've ever been acquainted to or have been friends with, appreciated the term at all... :Nope

Don and I were born and raised in the southern U.S., he in south Alabama and me in Georgia with some time in south Alabama. We are both products of the 1950s and the 1960s in the south and as such we both may have insights into the usage of the word that the majority of the people outside of the southern U.S. do not. We both have a couple of other things in common, we each have had to work very hard to get to our station in life and we each have traveled the world and observed other cultures at times with great amusement.

We both also have very strong women for wives. Don and I have been known to walk into a redneck joint with each other's wife just for the peasant reaction. Brandi and Phyllis get a huge laugh out of the reaction of the American Redneck (Dumbus Asus Rockus Knucklus Ddragus Groundus.) :lmao

CyberGuy
07-17-2005, 05:24 PM
I agree that a label is meaningless without the context or meaning behind it. Take bejohnson's friend Don for instance; I am sure that Don would be rather upset if bejohnson used the term 'nigger' with him in anger or in a truly derogatory manner. However because the term is used in a more friendly context, Don accepts it as harmless fun.

I've also been called many things that would be *****ed out by this forum software in a friendly context - and have accepted it in the manner in which it was meant. However if those same or other people had used those same names in in anger or a derogatory manner toward me, I would have loosened a few of their teeth for them.

Ergo it is not the name or label itself, but the context in which it is used that is hurtful.

egarrard
07-17-2005, 06:03 PM
I think that in today's society, the term n***** is used more to disparage an individual and their actions rather than the race as a whole. I see the term as exactly the same as "redneck" and if I happen to use it, it would be in the same context. "Stupid farkin' n*****" means the same as "Stupid farkin' redneck". It's based on how the individual acts or what they do, not as a slur to their race.

But, that being said, there is some color connotation. If you heard the term "redneck", you wouldn't think of a black person, and vice versa. These days, the terms are most used for clarity. A general term, like "Dumb*ss", might confuse the innocent into thinking you meant them.

Would I use the term around anyone else? No. Would I use it if someone did something stupid while I was driving? Probably. But then I cuss at stupid drivers all the time...

:Wink

Ira
07-18-2005, 05:34 AM
While I did not grow up in the U.S., I did live in North Carolina for a while. Certain things I experienced there just surprised me very much. My view on this particular matter, however, did not change during this time.
Arguing from what I learned at school and uni as well as through real life - experience, I always felt that a term like "nigger" is nothing anyone could really use in a sort of "innocent" way. The simple fact is, the term was made into what it is in a horrible cultural/historical context. How can you rid it of its meaning? Maybe my line of argument has more to do with my personal emotional connotations on this matter, but I always involuntarily remember how the term was coined in the first place and thus could not in good conscience use it casually. A friend of mine, who happens to be black as well, said to me one day that he does not even feel Afro Americans use the term respectfully among themselves, that there is always a derogatory undertone to it... :Holy Crap

bejohnson
07-18-2005, 07:29 AM
While I did not grow up in the U.S., I did live in North Carolina for a while. Certain things I experienced there just surprised me very much. My view on this particular matter, however, did not change during this time.
Arguing from what I learned at school and uni as well as through real life - experience, I always felt that a term like "nigger" is nothing anyone could really use in a sort of "innocent" way. The simple fact is, the term was made into what it is in a horrible cultural/historical context. How can you rid it of its meaning? Maybe my line of argument has more to do with my personal emotional connotations on this matter, but I always involuntarily remember how the term was coined in the first place and thus could not in good conscience use it casually. A friend of mine, who happens to be black as well, said to me one day that he does not even feel Afro Americans use the term respectfully among themselves, that there is always a derogatory undertone to it... :Holy Crap

It's a hard concept to understand and unless one has lived a long time not just having black friends but actually being in integrated communities of not only color but social and religious differences the interaction of people from a certain region are hard to understand.

You mentioned a term that has great acceptance through out the world and that is the term African-American to describe a black person. Many Blacks that are educated bristle at this term. People have tried to call native people from Africa African-Americans, which is wrong, as they are not associated in any way with America. Egyptians that come to the U.S. could properly be called African-American and the Egyptians are for the most part Caucasian not Negroid. The most glaring example though is the Dutch linage from South Africa. These people when they come to the U.S. are African-Americans and are white.

The term African-American does not describe a race or skin color. All the term does is define the linage of a person. It simply states where that person's ancestors came from just as Italian-American, German-American etc.

The problem in this country is that the political correctness crowd wishes to pigeon hole everyone. They want everybody to be a hyphenated-American. They forget that we all are AMERICANS first because we either were born here or chose to live here. There will always be cultural differences but that is what makes this country great.

Besides, there is only one group of people that are true Native Americans and their ancestors came to America from Eastern Asia many eons ago. :Wink But please don't call them "Native Americans" call them by their nation affiliation. Take me for instance, my Great Grandmother on my dad's side was Cherokee therefore I am part Cherokee. I am 100% Native-American because I was born here.

Quotes from Theodore Roosevelt the 26th president of the U.S."

There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship... We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
In this country we have no place for hyphenated Americans.

Ira
07-19-2005, 04:30 AM
It's a hard concept to understand and unless one has lived a long time not just having black friends but actually being in integrated communities of not only color but social and religious differences the interaction of people from a certain region are hard to understand.

You mentioned a term that has great acceptance through out the world and that is the term African-American to describe a black person. Many Blacks that are educated bristle at this term. People have tried to call native people from Africa African-Americans, which is wrong, as they are not associated in any way with America. Egyptians that come to the U.S. could properly be called African-American and the Egyptians are for the most part Caucasian not Negroid. The most glaring example though is the Dutch linage from South Africa. These people when they come to the U.S. are African-Americans and are white.

The term African-American does not describe a race or skin color. All the term does is define the linage of a person. It simply states where that person's ancestors came from just as Italian-American, German-American etc.

The problem in this country is that the political correctness crowd wishes to pigeon hole everyone. They want everybody to be a hyphenated-American. They forget that we all are AMERICANS first because we either were born here or chose to live here. There will always be cultural differences but that is what makes this country great.

Besides, there is only one group of people that are true Native Americans and their ancestors came to America from Eastern Asia many eons ago. :Wink But please don't call them "Native Americans" call them by their nation affiliation. Take me for instance, my Great Grandmother on my dad's side was Cherokee therefore I am part Cherokee. I am 100% Native-American because I was born here.

Quotes from Theodore Roosevelt the 26th president of the U.S."


I am sure you have a point when you say you have to have lived in integrated communities - and that over a certain amount of time - to be able to understand the concept in question better. This is, however, an argument true for most issues of that nature. Knowing that, it would be easy to say people maybe not directly enough involved in a certain situation should better not talk or assume about it at all. I do not think it's entirely true that (in this particular case) only being immersed in a community like that makes someone an expert on the matter. You somehow have to let other people voice their opinion in a discussion - whether you accept it as valid or not is a different matter and of course entirely up to you. It's easy to kill off a conversation with your line of argument.
I argue from my perspective as a student of North American Studies, as well as my experience from my time in America, and by accounts of friends and family I have there. I'd say that should qualify for discussion at least. :)

Could you explain to me how African Americans (for the lack of a better term) are not connected in any way to America, as you say? I just did not really understand that.

As to the problem of a hyphenated identity I just want to add that there are quite some well-known people, among them many writers, who openly declare and celebrate their hyphenated existence in your country. This mostly is not seen as something tearing them apart or negative in general, but rather it is an expression of their two-ness, resulting from their cultural heritage. With time, a lot of people have become very proud of who they are, if sometimes it was difficult to reach that point.

bejohnson
07-19-2005, 05:23 AM
Could you explain to me how African Americans (for the lack of a better term) are not connected in any way to America, as you say? I just did not really understand that.

There was a very famous happening several years ago where Desmond Tutu was introduced as "African-American". Desmond Tutu of course is from South Africa but he is not in any way shape or form an American. To introduce him as an African-American is a slap in the face to his heritage.

There are only three main race divisions in the world according to the old system of race classification:

1.) Black or more properly called Negroid. Negroid describes the racial classification of humans from Sub-Saharan Africa and Nilotic peoples of East Africa. Some of the politically correct crowd likes to use "Africoid" but that ignores the fact that this race can be found outside of Africa.

2.) Caucasoid describes humans primarily from Europe, the Middle East (Western Asia), North Africa, the Indian subcontinent and parts of Central Asia.

3.) Mongoloid describes humans from North Asia, Central Asia, East Asia, the Pacific Oceania, the Americas or Greenland.

At one time there was a fourth classification of race called Australoid describes the racial classification of humans primarily from Australia as well as areas of Asia or Oceania. It is now thought that the Australoid race is a combination of the Negroid and the Mongoloid races.

The point of the above is that race is nothing but a grouping of peoples with the same physical traits. This usually includes but is not limited to skin color, bone structure and origin.

Race is nothing but a physical descriptor and should never be used as basis of judging the potential or intelligence of a person.

Everyone should be proud of his or her heritage but no one should let their race be the only thing that defines who they are. Being hyphenated only describes one's heritage; it doesn't speak to who that person is.