What Would You Have Done?

[egarrard]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/05/26/international/i105257D68.DTL
The story, an open secret in the crowded nylon city of Mount Everest base camp, trickled out from the high Himalayas: a British mountaineer desperate for oxygen had collapsed along a well-traveled route to the summit.

Dozens of people walked right past him, unwilling to risk their own ascents.

Within hours, David Sharp, 34, was dead.Do you think someone should have stopped to help him? Or was thier own personal glory more important than another person's life? It reminds me of the story of the good Samaritan.

What would you have done?

[Kindom934]

Here's another article somewhat related to that.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060526205509990007&ncid=NWS00010000000001

[tanman_sg]

I do not beleive there was a wrong decision to be made.

Inglis' crew found him pretty much 'frozen solid', and could only tell that he was alive by looking at his eyes.

Inglis was also a double amputee - and actually broke one of his prosthetic legs on the mountain. It was probably the only chance he'd have to climb the mountain. He's going to have parts of some fingers amputated because of the frostbite. Two trips up the moutain would have a more pronounced effect. (No legs, you need your fingers, right?)


Other experienced mountaneers have been very careful taking sides - because they can see the argument from both sides. The only one who has really spoken out and been noticed if Sir Hillary, who was last year voted as NZ's most trusted man, and probably no longer is.

[Maro]

This is a fairly common experience on the 8000m peaks. Unless you've climbed that high, I think it's unfair for anyone else to comment.

Read "Into Thin Air" by Jon Krakauer for an horrific account of deaths on Everest.

:Holy Crap

[egarrard]

Unless you've climbed that high, I think it's unfair for anyone else to comment.
Oh bull****, Maro. Then just because we aren't Canadians, you and I shouldn't be allowed to post in these forums? That makes just as much sense.

You are a human being. They were human beings. This is about the rightness of walking away from a dying human being. Would you just drive on past a car wreck with bodies lying in the road in the road, or would you stop and try to help? Surely you have some compassion for your fellow human beings?

No, I'm not a mountain climber, nor ever will be. But I can see the rightness or wrongness in this situation. Walking away from a dying man without trying to help was tantamount to his murder. Condoning the act through silence isn't much better.

Climbing some stupid mountain is NOT worth more than another human life. Inglis should get the Moussoui treatment. Let him be locked away for the rest of his life and never see the world again. He doesn't deserve to.

[bejohnson]

Luke 10:25-37

[25] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

[26] "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

[27] He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

[28] "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

[29] But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

[30] In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. [31] A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. [32] So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. [33] But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. [34] He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. [35] The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

[36] "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

[37] The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

As egarrard stated nothing, not even the one chance of attaining a personal goal, is worth ignoring a person in distress. To ignore the climber only shows that the people that were on the mountain that day have lost not only their moral center and compass but their humanity as well.

[Tivon]

You act as if these people have common sense... They are climbing Everest.

[Maro]

With all due respect, if you understand the realities of climbing at above 8000m you'd know it is extremely difficult to assist. The spot where the stricken climber was found is impossible to traverse without both persons being able to walk. Helicopters can't reach them.

It is not called the Death Zone for fun. :Sigh

[slugbug]

Words can't describe how much that story disgusts me.

[bejohnson]

With all due respect, if you understand the realities of climbing at above 8000m you'd know it is extremely difficult to assist. The spot where the stricken climber was found is impossible to traverse without both persons being able to walk. Helicopters can't reach them.

It is not called the Death Zone for fun. :Sigh

I do know what the terrain of Everest is like and I also know the dangers of being above 8000 meters. That is why it was even more imperative for someone, anyone to stop and render aid. The fact that they all placed a trivial personal glory above a man's life is totally disgusting. That is the ultimate in self-centered greed and glory seeking.

You say you were a military cadet or something of the like. Did they not teach you of the importance of teamwork and the importance and value of human life? It may have taken several climbers to save the man but his life could have been saved.

There is always another day to climb, when a man dies he has no more days for anything. This entire sad event is just a symptom of a troubling trend in the world in which everyone is for themselves even if it means the dire expense of others.

What does the abandoning of this climber get those that passed him up to continue their climb? Nothing but the ability to say I climbed to the top of Mt. Everest. In the grand scheme of life that is nothing but a trivial event. To say I stopped my climb of Everest to help save the life of a fellow man would say a Hell of a lot more about the character of the person that stopped and would be a much greater accomplishment in that person's life than to be able to say one had done something that had already been done by others. :Nope :banghead :Nope

[Drizzt]

I agree that helping the man if it is at all humanly possible is the first and foremost course of action for any rational human being.

That said however I wonder what could have been done for him. When you climb that high and collapse, the chances of getting back down before you die are nil particularly if it happens in a place that inaccessible to a chopper. Even backtracking the few hours that this guy lived would not have been enough to get him to an altitude low enough to save his life. He needed immediate hospitalization.

Medical Problems


Source : http://www.mounteverest.net/expguide/altdangers.htm


Altitude dangers

We will not go too deep into this subject. We are not doctors and there is extensive literature on alpine medicine available.

You should educate yourself and also read and bring with you the book "Medicine for mountaineering" (The mountaineers) on the expedition. We would however like to share with you some of our own hands-on experience. Our advice is out of a climber's perspective, a practical supplement to conventional medical knowledge.

Acclimatization

There is no need to hurry or exert your self while acclimatizing. You shouldn’t climb higher than 300-500 meters/900-1500 ft per day. That’s not very hard to do and you might be tempted to go farther. But all it will bring you is headache, sleeplessness and possibly mountain illness in the morning. Use your head, not your legs only.

These are the signs to watch for when climbing:

* Normal acclimatization

Some headache (relieved by aspirin), irregular breathing at night, rapid breathing at day, increased urine output.

* Moderate mountain sickness

Some sleeplessness, decreased urine output, persistent headache not relieved by aspirin. Stay at your current altitude for some time (1-2 days) until you feel well. Don’t climb higher!

* Acute mountain sickness (AMS)

Dizziness, vomiting, losing your balance, persistent coughing, sleepiness. Go down at least 500-m/1500 ft! Immediately.
Consult a doctor (on the walkie-talkie) and take emergency medicine.


High Altitude Cerebral (HACE)- and Pulmonary (HAPE) Edema

This is serious. Cerebral and Pulmonary Edema are caused by fluid collecting inside the brain and/or lungs.

Cerebral edema shows as failure of motor function, vomiting, hallucinations, extreme sleepiness and ataxia (can’t walk heel to toe). Try to walk a straight line or point your nose if you suspect it.

Oxygen, Gamow bag-treatment, Diamox and Decadron are helpful, but the most important is rapid descent.

The same treatment counts for Pulmonary edema (blue lips, very heavy breathing, gurgling sound when breathing).

Both HACE and HAPE arrive upon pushing in spite of AMS. They are the immediate result of too much, too fast and a general negligence to the body's subtle or in the end, not so subtle warnings.

Sometimes we have to push the limits. Storms and other acute situations might force us into circumstances that we don’t like. That’s one thing. But to come up with AMS due to impatience and ignorance is sad. It could cost you your life. HAPE and HACE kill fast.

Lastly, never cook inside a sealed tent. The gas withdraws the oxygen from the air and this can cause HACE/HAPE conditions in your sleep.

In other words, while helping may have been the right thing to do, experienced Everest climbers know that there is nothing that can be done for someone who collapses from HACE or HAPE except kiss their own efforts goodbye. In this case, the guy would have needed to be airlifted by helicopter to save his life - anything slower and he dies.

It takes a huge amount of effort, determination and tunnel vision to climb Everest. For some it is a lifetime achievement. I don't doubt that a lot of people that have put that kind of effort in to achieve their goal will be so quick to throw it away for a lost cause - particularly if that lost cause is due to stupidity.

[Maro]

Indeed I was a military cadet. I'm also a fairly experienced climber. The situation is never as clear cut as you think. As I mentioned, you can't evacuate from the mountain. The the difficult area of ethics becomes more difficult as you have to weigh up the risks to the other climbers. It's academic for us to debate the issue.

The highest I've climbed is 5000m and I was having problems at that level. At sea level, I could carry any body, up there I could barely walk without wanting to vomit. Add an exponential 3500m and it would be impossible. He was already suffering from Oedema and hallucinating. Removing his mask and unzipping his clothing.

For every expedition that is successful in the Himalayas/Karakoram, there is nearly always a fatality. These Mountains are dangerous and the people that climb them are aware fo the risks. Its a drive they have.

[tanman_sg]

Source: http://stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3692098a10,00.html

Bump (For the record, I'm with Maro)


Dying climber caught on film
07 June 2006
By MICHAEL FIELD

A new picture of what happened on Mt Everest the day double amputee Mark Inglis reached the summit suggests he was wrongly condemned for not helping dying British climber David Sharp.

As the truth emerges about events on May 15, it turns out that other highly skilled New Zealanders were present – and most of the 40 people there were making a Discovery Channel television documentary.

Sharp was even filmed by the television crew in his last conscious moments on the mountain.

Inglis – who will have three frostbitten fingertips amputated today – has welcomed the revelations, saying he had been unfairly criticised.

"It was a busy day on Everest that day," he said yesterday from his Christchurch hospital bed. "Don't assume no one did anything. That's the big thing and that is the thing everybody has assumed – that 40 people walked past – which is patently incorrect."

Inglis said he was aware many of the people near the summit were from television crews. Others had kept quiet about what happened. "A lot of people have kept their heads low . . . There were a lot of people on the mountain that day."

Inglis said he was in a lot of pain awaiting today's procedure to amputate three fingers at the first knuckle. His badly frostbitten leg stumps will also be "opened up" and checked.

"That hasn't helped along with the whole thing. I have been very lucky to keep my cool really."

Taxpayers will pay the $2500 cost of Inglis' operation, which is funded by ACC. His case is deemed acute, propelling him past a four-month waiting list for plastic surgery.

New Zealander Mark Woodward, who was with Inglis for his climb, agreed with the climber's stand. "Our Sherpas checked (Sharp) and put him on oxygen but unfortunately all that did was prolong everything for him," he said.

Sir Edmund Hillary has said Inglis was wrong not to have helped Sharp.

Asked why he was heavily criticised – despite there being many people in a better position to help – Inglis said: "Bloody good question."

Also at the summit was Queenstown cameraman Mark Whetu, who was filming for the Discovery Channel. He would not comment yesterday.

Discovery's tour company, Himex, is headed by New Zealander Russell Brice, who is expected to make a statement this week from France.

Sharp, who was with the group Asian Trekking, headed to the summit on May 14 but shortly after midnight on May 15 he was found by a Himex group in a distressed state in a rock cave near the summit.

The climbers carried on and reached the summit. On descent around 9am they found Sharp still alive.

New York-based ExplorersWeb, which has had a long-running dispute with Mr Brice, claims they left him.

What was not known at the time of the criticism of Inglis was that British documentary makers Tigress Productions and the Discovery Channel, based in Maryland, United States, had a big crew on the mountain, including Sherpas with helmet cameras.

Some time later in the day a Sherpa wearing a camera found Sharp. ExplorersWeb said the Sherpa asked: "What is your name?"

"My name is David Sharp. I'm with Asian Trekking, and I just want to sleep," the climber replied.

The unnamed Sherpa was said by ExplorersWeb to have left him.

Neither Tigress nor Discovery could be contacted yesterday.

ExplorersWeb has published names and nationalities of climbers it said walked past Sharp. They include a Turkish group and 15 people from Himex, including New Zealanders Inglis, Whetu, Woodward and Wayne Alexander.

Woodward said there had always been much more to the controversy than was suggested last month.

"It was a horrible situation and the guy was beyond help, though he recovered somewhat at one point. When we passed him he was in a hypothermic coma, because it was such a brutally cold night and he had been out for some time."

[pan]

Unfortunatly quoting the Bible does not change the facts. (If only life were that easy.)

This climber should have known he was in no condition to continue climbing the day he collapsed; his fellow climbers should have also known this. They were the ones responsible for his death.

None of the climbers whom later found him in distress could do anything but prolong his slow and agonizing death; he had been at altitude for to long by that point to have any chance at recovering, even if they could get him off the mountain.

Sure it's a sad event, but it doesn't reflect badly on anyone except those whom were in his climbing party and himself.

[viperrcr]

Geez, reading this, I kinda get imagery of Marines and other military men in combat, but particularly the Marines with their motto "leave no man behind". Last I knew fellow Marines "RISKED" their own lives to bring the wounded back to get help or even their corpses, even at the extremely high risk of getting their own a*ses shot off and getting injured or killed, yet they do it anyways...I fail to see how this is any different, the risks are the same, and they even do it for the deceased risking their own lives to bring back someone that is deceased so they may be returned to their families...Doesn't look like these people mentioned in the thread story would do/try the same, and for what, glory...Ladies/Gentlemen, the Army/Marines and all other services have my TOTAL respect! I used to be in the USAF, and being how my exposure was limited, I can only imagine the horrors they had to endure with during wars and selfless acts to save their comrades, or to just "bring them home"...

[Drizzt]

These aren't marines. They are civilian mountainclimbers from anywhere in the world.

To assume everyone should/would follow the same standards as soldiers is unreasonable. Which IMO may be a good thing since I am NOT a fan of all things military.

[viperrcr]

Marines are people...Everyday people, working together for a common goal. They do not have to do these things, but yet they do. That takes heart. Going above and beyond. They do it not because they have to, because they want to. If they do not, they will not get court martialed or anything, they do it because they feel it is the right thing to do.
Believe me, I was in the military and I did like it, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything. I am not a blind military loyalist, there are MANY points I do not agree with either, just like you. I am just pointing out the human element here. Just pointing out that they do not have to do what they did, yet they do it anyways. Not for any glory at all, especially to climb a mountain.
Yet I can understand the counterpoint in a sense. Should a person risk themselves when they may have family/children depending on them in order to save another, but then if I had family depending on me I wouldn't go climbing Everest with risks that high although one could die as simpy as driving a car. Anyhow, I would opt to try to help and try to get help in numbers to lessen the risk. Just MO.