Discord over guitar sites

[Bodhisattva]

I cannot believe this!!! WTF?!?!?:mad :tantrum When will these buggers ever stop? Next thing they will tell us that listening to the music, covering them in a band, or singing along with them are all copyright infringements as well!! How do you think most of these muscians learned to play their instruments or became inspired to become one in the 1st place?? These people on the Tab sites work their asses off to figure out the tunes and this is all free, no money is made so what is the harm done??? I am sure the actual musicians agree as well, it just the evil companies who think they own it all and greed runs red in their veins...

With the fight against illegal downloading of songs starting to pay off, the music business has set its sights on a new enemy on the internet - websites which transcribe pop songs into musical notation.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5305520.stm

[egarrard]

It's just the evil companies who think they own it all...No...those companies DO own it all. Rights to those songs, that is. The songwriters hired those companies to market and protect their songs. The company is just protecting their (and the writer's) property.

You want the TAB? Pay the publisher to produce it.

[nighthawk15]

Old news ,a good amount of websites that I would get guitar tabs from have been shut down already, most notably mxtabs.net. At least they supposedly won't be able to shut down ultimate-guitar.com, or so it says on thier site because its based in Russia.:KICK ASS

[Bodhisattva]

No...those companies DO own it all. Rights to those songs, that is. The songwriters hired those companies to market and protect their songs. The company is just protecting their (and the writer's) property.

You want the TAB? Pay the publisher to produce it.

Yeah...that was my whole point with this comment:

Next thing they will tell us that listening to the music, covering them in a band, or singing along with them are all copyright infringements as well!!

[Drizzt]

Listening? No, because in listening you are not making a tangible copy of the music. Just like reading a book does not make a tangible copy of it. The copy is in your head - which cannot be distributed to others unless you are a telepath. Covering them in a band or singing along can be copyright infringement however if it is done for profit.

Thing is that a judge (arbitrator) decides what is fair. A simple cover or singing along just for the fun of it is simply a tribute to the band's expertise and the judge would normally throw it out because the distribution to is relatively low. If the publisher/artist were smart, they would not raise a stink over it since that helps them with the material's popularity.

But if you accept money for doing that, the judge just may insist that the original publisher/artist get a cut (royalties). It is only fair right? You would be profiting from the originator's creativity and talent, the originator should share in the profits from it.

Now transcribed music, even if it is distributed for free is a whole other issue. The songs are IP or Intellectual property. Copying them in any form for distribution to others is illegal. Because of the Internet's pervasiveness it is possible to distribute these tabs to millions of people. Naturally the publisher/artist wants, and deserves a portion of that. If it is distributed for free, they are totally in their rights to demand the retail value of each tab produced as damages.

I have to agree with egarrard on this one. If someone learning to play a guitar wants to learn someone else's music, they should be buying the sheet material from the publisher. It is only fair.

[Happy Camper]

Guitarists have it good. If you play any sort of classical instrument you have to pay for your music. Guitarists, bassists and those who play instruments with easily available tabs on the net should be grateful that they can get as much as they can free.

[Bodhisattva]

Listening? No, because in listening you are not making a tangible copy of the music. Just like reading a book does not make a tangible copy of it. The copy is in your head - which cannot be distributed to others unless you are a telepath. Covering them in a band or singing along can be copyright infringement however if it is done for profit.

Thing is that a judge (arbitrator) decides what is fair. A simple cover or singing along just for the fun of it is simply a tribute to the band's expertise and the judge would normally throw it out because the distribution to is relatively low. If the publisher/artist were smart, they would not raise a stink over it since that helps them with the material's popularity.

But if you accept money for doing that, the judge just may insist that the original publisher/artist get a cut (royalties). It is only fair right? You would be profiting from the originator's creativity and talent, the originator should share in the profits from it.

Now transcribed music, even if it is distributed for free is a whole other issue. The songs are IP or Intellectual property. Copying them in any form for distribution to others is illegal. Because of the Internet's pervasiveness it is possible to distribute these tabs to millions of people. Naturally the publisher/artist wants, and deserves a portion of that. If it is distributed for free, they are totally in their rights to demand the retail value of each tab produced as damages.

I have to agree with egarrard on this one. If someone learning to play a guitar wants to learn someone else's music, they should be buying the sheet material from the publisher. It is only fair.


Ah yes but if you look on TAB sites, every tab is different as the people actually take the time to try and figure out the particular tune. Therefore each one for the same song is different tand therefore may not be the exact way the artist plays that tune. Diff chords etc. So technically it may sound the same but if you want to get real technical, if the artist does not use those particular chords or methods in how they play and created the song, it won't hold water in court and I agree with that. All it is are Joe Schmoe's in their bedroom listening to a song and trying to figure out how to play it. Then a program is used to type out those chords and notes. If they are not identical, they companies cannot do squat and rightly so ;)

[egarrard]

if it is done for profit. Wrong. If a copy is made for any reason without being licensed from the publisher, it is a violation of the copyright law. The violation doesn't occur with the use, but with the production of the copy.

My guess is that if all these sites would contact BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC and get a blanket license, they would be legit. They could probably charge $.10 a copy for the TAB and be legal. But they're too stupid to do that, so they get shut down.

[Tivon]

sigh.. just do it yourself as that is part of learning to play.

[Drizzt]

Wrong. If a copy is made for any reason without being licensed from the publisher, it is a violation of the copyright law. The violation doesn't occur with the use, but with the production of the copy....

So you are saying that if I happen to sing my favorite tune in the shower (way off key of course - but my voice carries so my parents would probably hear :noway ) i could be sued for copyright infringement? If if I happen to pick up my guitar and hack around at that song in my living room where my family could hear the mess i am making of it this is illegal? I am after all duplicating their Intellectual Property, no matter how poorly.

Somehow I doubt even they would be stupid enough to try and enforce that. But then again they might just do that just to stop me from butchering their songs...
http://www.smileypad.com/v202/Cache/Holidays/Guitar.gif

[Saturn2888]

Let's kick this into videogames now, what about OC Remix and VGMix? What about the video game music archive that has all those MIDIs? Aren't you almost owning the album buy owning the game. And if you own the album, then is it okay to listen to transcriptions?

Also, like someone noted earlier. Can't you modify songs enough to where they're a remix or something and then it's not the exact same song? What if it was an orchestra (nonvocal) version? See, THAT's the stuff I'm curious about.

[Tivon]

While singing in the shower the cops bust the doors down and drag you off to jail. Then in jail you sing the blues and men in white coats come and drag you off to a small room with padded walls. Then you cry in the darkness waiting for someone to turn the lights on.

How long before the people start to fight back? Ask the guy in the dark padded room...

[Saturn2888]

Whoa. I missed something big.

[egarrard]

So you are saying that if I happen to sing my favorite tune in the shower (way off key of course - but my voice carries so my parents would probably hear :noway ) i could be sued for copyright infringement? If if I happen to pick up my guitar and hack around at that song in my living room where my family could hear the mess i am making of it this is illegal? I am after all duplicating their Intellectual Property, no matter how poorly.

Somehow I doubt even they would be stupid enough to try and enforce that. But then again they might just do that just to stop me from butchering their songs...
http://www.smileypad.com/v202/Cache/Holidays/Guitar.gifIf you record it in any form then put it on the internet like these TAB sites, yes.

As for your argument about singing in the shower, you know better. The point I'm trying to make is that what people think ought to be the law may not be. I'd hate for someone reading the first post to think that they can write some TAB charts out, put them up on the internet, then believe they won't get sued. They will because they are stealing, even if they think it is for a good cause. Only the owner of a song has the right to make a copy of the song in ANY form. Just because you think it ought to be okay doesn't mean it will be. Don't make a bad mistake.

The publishers have no qualms about screwing their writers. They won't hesitate to screw you even worse. It's also how their attorneys make their money. Think about it. Attorneys grow rich off the misery of others. The more money for their client, the more money for them. Do you really think they will show you any mercy? :lmao

[Drizzt]

...
As for your argument about singing in the shower, you know better....

Was that really necessary? :Nope

[DragonMaster]

Next thing they will tell us that listening to the music, covering them in a band, or singing along with them are all copyright infringements as well!!

Have you heard about France's new law on this, the DADVSI? People can't put thesongs they made on the Internet because they are not allowed to. They can't use P2P for legal files, copy for personal use is illegal, changing the file to an other format is illegal, etc. Linux can't play any proprietary formats as well.

At least we (Still ) don't have this here in North America.


Sueing tab sites is pretty stupid, it's an other guy playing, it's missing lots of notes and no one would listen to this on a CD or MP3 player I think.

[Tivon]

Egarrard and Drizzt, you both have valid points.
Try not to call people names Egarrard! ;)
For now I've removed the offending word.

[Bodhisattva]

Wrong. If a copy is made for any reason without being licensed from the publisher, it is a violation of the copyright law. The violation doesn't occur with the use, but with the production of the copy.

My guess is that if all these sites would contact BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC and get a blanket license, they would be legit. They could probably charge $.10 a copy for the TAB and be legal. But they're too stupid to do that, so they get shut down.

So are you saying that you too are foolish? Have you not mentioned in other older threads about owning old amps and guitars? Have you then never played another artist's music before? Did you contact and offer to give BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC .10 for everytime you played a tune? If not then you are no less guilty, right? ;)

[Drizzt]

Most aspiring guitarists would simply wander down to the music store and buy their sheet music. Nice and legal as far as the customer is concerned.

I do see egarrard's point. Instead of downloading tabs from the i-net from place like guitars-are-us.com, why not simply buy your sheet music or go to the publisher's site if they offer them.

[Saturn2888]

Yeah, that is a good point. If the sheet music sucks, you can always go to the publisher and complain, a lot!

If they don't have the sheet music, what then do you do?

[Drizzt]

Yeah, that is a good point. If the sheet music sucks, you can always go to the publisher and complain, a lot!

If they don't have the sheet music, what then do you do?

Go to a music store. They sell more sheet music than instruments. If it still sucks you can still complain to the publisher.

[Tivon]

I've got my share of sheet music books, but I don't buy them from music stores, just book stores when cheap.