1st Day Back

[jinu123nyc]

Hey everyone,

It's been probably 2 years or so since I've posted here. Just liked to know what's going on and what's new. I actually came back because I'm looking into purchasing a new pc and I've been slacking on the latest top products.

Any suggestiions/comments would be nice.

[JesterX]

Core 2 all the way! Welcome back btw.

[tanman_sg]

Yay!

Seems like a few of the 'old regulars' have come back lately.

[Kindom934]

YEEEAA!!!

I'm an old regular!! (wait...I'm only about 1 year and 10 months old...)


So I'm a newbe? :What the





Anyhow, WELCOME BAACKK!!!!!!! :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello :luxhello


<img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/Kingdom934/avatar.gif" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br>



(^^ my assassin is happy :) ....)










EDIT: If you need help with a build for your system, post a thread up in the General Hardware; more help will be given there since more people thread there then anyplace else on this forum.

[jinu123nyc]

Thanks for all the welcomes!

So I guess Core 2 Duo's are on top these days huh?
Are there any reviews on their overclockablilty?

[JesterX]

You bet, very overclockable.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/10/cheap_thrills/
http://www.techspot.com/article/13-intel-core2duo-e6300-e6700-overclocking/

http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/12/bench/Synthetic_01.png

[werty316]

With the right board the Core2Duo are overclock wonders. the Gigabyte DS3 is one of them.

[Saturn2888]

Man, that's one helluva OC there.

I notice that the Pentium D didn't gain near as much. So wait, I'm guessing they OC'd the RAM too or something?

[jinu123nyc]

With the right board the Core2Duo are overclock wonders. the Gigabyte DS3 is one of them.

too bad the DS3 doesnt support dual videocard setups

[JesterX]

What kind (which cards) of a dual video setup are you looking at?

Theres no need for a 8800 dual, and a single 8800 kicks major butt

[jinu123nyc]

i don't have a current preference over sli or crossfire since most benchmarks i've seen have similar results.

though i am looking forward for the 8800 quad-setup!

[JesterX]

Your gonna need a minimum 1kW PSU for that, not to mention lots and lots of cooling.

[jinu123nyc]

I wonder if the core 2 duo extremes are bottlenecking the gpus
probably...

[JesterX]

According to Tomshardware, they are if its SLI (I'm pretty sure its SLI, though it could be just single).

[werty316]

Getting two 8800GTX in SLi is only usefull if you have a monitor that is capable of a resolution of atleast 1600*1200. Even 1280*1024 isn't enough to show its full potential.
I wonder if the core 2 duo extremes are bottlenecking the gpus
probably...
Any current CPU would bottleneck a 8800GTX in SLi. Even the QX6700 does and its a quadcore CPU.

too bad the DS3 doesnt support dual videocard setups

If you want SLi and Core2Duo the 680i-SLi or 650i-SLi is the way to go.

CPU scaling with the 8800GTX: http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=603
(I'll take anything over a THG review ;))

[Saturn2888]

I wonder if the core 2 duo extremes are bottlenecking the gpus
probably...
I doubt that's the case.

[jinu123nyc]

If you want SLi and Core2Duo the 680i-SLi or 650i-SLi is the way to go.

CPU scaling with the 8800GTX: http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=603
(I'll take anything over a THG review ;))


How are those chipsets right now? I noticed a lot of people are using the eVGA mobo for that but they have a lot of issues with memory compatibility and overheating issues.

[Saturn2888]

I think someone needs to startup a guide that shows what CPUs and GPUs you should pair together for gaming because if it's always either the processor or graphics card being the limiting factor, you would want a list telling you which you should pair up together.

[jinu123nyc]

I think someone needs to startup a guide that shows what CPUs and GPUs you should pair together for gaming because if it's always either the processor or graphics card being the limiting factor, you would want a list telling you which you should pair up together.

Excellent idea, I would like to start one when I have time especially since I am on vacation right now.

[Saturn2888]

Yeah, that would be very nice. Even, we could start a thread on it and have Zeek or Rod post it up on the site.

[werty316]

How are those chipsets right now? I noticed a lot of people are using the eVGA mobo for that but they have a lot of issues with memory compatibility and overheating issues.
The 680i-SLi has been plagued mostly with memory issues but like you said quite a few eVGA users are experienced HD corruption issues however eVGA has released a beta bios thet is suppose to correct this problem.

As for the 650-SLi so far, there have been only memory issues based on the only two reviews I that I know that are out:
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2894
http://www.techgage.com/article/asus_p5n-e_sli

For the price you pay for a 680i-SLi board, the 650i-SLi performs 90-95% on par to the 680i-SLi and that includes how well the 650i-SLi oveclocks too.

If you are a Intel user who wants SLi, the 650i-SLi if the better choice as it costs an arm and a leg for a 680i-SLi board.

[JesterX]

Were there SATA issues as well?

[jinu123nyc]

I think I'll stick with the ASUS P5 since ATI is going to release their R600 chipset soon.

[Saturn2888]

That's a good idea. If you're Intel, there's nothing better than ATi (or AMD now) mobos.

So should we all be saying AMD now?

[jinu123nyc]

That's a good idea. If you're Intel, there's nothing better than ATi (or AMD now) mobos.

So should we all be saying AMD now?

I guess AMD would be the proper name...

[Saturn2888]

Well then we gotta change it. All the Wiis that are being made still say ATi though. Has anyone heard or seem that they changed it to AMD yet?

[Kindom934]

I pefer they do not take the ATI name for graphics and start saying "AMD Radeon".

Really doesn't match in my opinion. I've grown to love the red and black box and the red PCB of the 'build by ATI' cards. If that changes...........

[efernandez_98]

You do realize that those "built by ATi" cards are really physically built in a Sapphire's manufacturing plant.

[Saturn2888]

Yes, I do. I thought it was just a large portion, not all of them though. Also, isn't Sapphire a subsidiary of ATi? And so what about the new cards? I haven't seen one AMD card out yet. I'm really hoping we don't go back to green graphics cards. Anything but that.

[Kindom934]

You do realize that those "built by ATi" cards are really physically built in a Sapphire's manufacturing plant.

Yes I know. I like ATI box design better for the most part.


Yes, I do. I thought it was just a large portion, not all of them though. Also, isn't Sapphire a subsidiary of ATi? And so what about the new cards? I haven't seen one AMD card out yet. I'm really hoping we don't go back to green graphics cards. Anything but that.

AMD card...


No more newer video cards for me... :shifty

[Saturn2888]

I might be able to get my hands on an X1900. King, wanna help me out? Maybe a mid-level DX10 card? Any out?

[Kindom934]

I might be able to get my hands on an X1900. King, wanna help me out? Maybe a mid-level DX10 card? Any out?

Uh?

Oh, I'm just saying if AMD starts to say 'AMD Radeon', you can bet I'm not going to move to DX10 cards.

[Saturn2888]

Why? That's horrible dude.

[tkelito]

YEEEAA!!!

I'm an old regular!! (wait...I'm only about 1 year and 10 months old...)


So I'm a newbe? :What the



I have a lot more time in Kingdom... and yet not nearly as many posts... hmmmm

I like to think its quality over quantity :Wink

:KICK ASS :KICK ASS

Welcome back man, I remember you being around when I first started posting here. I took some time off too as well, roughly about 6 months and fell way behind in the PC world. Everything changes soooo fast now its almost unbelievable.

Such a great hobby though!!!

-Pat-

[efernandez_98]

I have a lot more time in Kingdom...
Bow chika Bow Wow!! :lmao

[tkelito]

Sick bro, just sick.

I am tempted to click the edit button now cause of your sick mind.

Lol.

-Pat-

[Kindom934]

Why? That's horrible dude.

Hard to explain, it's something goes with the line of me sticking with ATI. Sure it's ATI/AMD right now but if the boxes change, I'm going to have to make another stacks.

With that said, I believe AMD was the one who pushed to discontinue the A-I-W Series (All In Wonder). Sure it seemed a bit useless but for people with HTPC and wanted everything to be on one card, it was a nice thing. Of course the software wasn't up to par for some parts, it was nice to have build right into a video card. Thats one thing I think that really was unique VS nVidia since nVidia didn't have much footing in that area. They did (eVGA) make one card with something similar of the A-I-W offering but didn't do great.

So if the boxes do change with the names of the GPU, I'm sticking with the what ever generation that was currently mostly ATI. (i.e X19K series)


I have a lot more time in Kingdom... and yet not nearly as many posts... hmmmm

I like to think its quality over quantity :Wink

:KICK ASS :KICK ASS

Welcome back man, I remember you being around when I first started posting here. I took some time off too as well, roughly about 6 months and fell way behind in the PC world. Everything changes soooo fast now its almost unbelievable.

Such a great hobby though!!!

-Pat-

Yes, time has changed a lot.

With hardware stuff changing so fast, we're like 'Oh, so it's only a month?', lol..

It's an expensive hobby...


I have a lot more time in Kingdom...Bow chika Bow Wow!! :lmao

Very interesting :)

[Saturn2888]

I remember Rod's VR on the card. I think, with having 2 PCIe x8/x16 slots on mobos now, it's feasible to just make another card. Even if it was PCIe x1, you'd still be fine. That's plenty of bandwidth there. Heck, we didn't even use up all of the AGP port's bandwidth; although, we were getting close.

Right now, it's all about memory speed. The faster the memory, the more bandwidth you have.

[JesterX]

Seriously? You could run an current gen ATI card on PCI-E x1 without bottlenecking that bus?

[tkelito]

Sick. I'm done on this thread.

-Pat-

[Kindom934]

Seriously? You could run an current gen ATI card on PCI-E x1 without bottlenecking that bus?

I believe the transfer rate for PCI-e 1X is 250 MB/s. It will bottleneck any high end cards but that bandwidth should be more then enough for lowre end things. Only one PCI-e 1X card is on the market right now I believe (or in stock on newegg). It is the HIS HighTec 1300 Hyper Memory 64-bit .

The beauty of having PCI-e lanes is that a 1X can work in a 4X or 16X. It won't go the other way around as it won't fit.

[JesterX]

Speaking of PCI-e, they just released the PCIe 2.0 spec

PCIe 2.0 adds a number of enhancements that make the spec more useful for the kinds of coprocessor hosting that PCIe is increasingly being pressed into service for. At the top of the list is increased signaling speed (5GHz) that results in increased per-link bandwidth. Specifically, each lane doubles from 2.5 GT/s under the PCIe 1.1 spec to 5 GT/s under the 2.0 spec, with the result that a PCIe 2.0 x16 link has a peak bandwidth of 16 GB/s.

Thats a freaking lot of bandwidth.

[efernandez_98]

Speaking of PCI-e, they just released the PCIe 2.0 spec

Thats a freaking lot of bandwidth.

I'm guessing that's the speed after the speed after calculating PCI overhead. Because the raw speed of PCIe is 2.5 Gigabits per second per lane per direction.

PCI-Express theroretical bandwidth limitations /01: 01 (b) x 2500 (Mhz) = 02500 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 00312.5 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 0250 MBps /02: 02 (b) x 2500 (Mhz) = 05000 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 00625.0 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 0500 MBps /04: 04 (b) x 2500 (Mhz) = 10000 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 01250.0 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 1000 MBps /08: 08 (b) x 2500 (Mhz) = 20000 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 02500.0 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 2000 MBps /16: 16 (B) x 2500 (Mhz) = 40000 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 05000.0 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 4000 MBps /32: 32 (b) x 2500 (Mhz) = 80000 (Mbps) / 8 (B) = 10000.0 MBps - 20% (overhead) = 8000 MBps

EDIT: nevermind, I keep mixing my cases in terms of bits and bytes.

[efernandez_98]

Speaking of PCI-e, they just released the PCIe 2.0 spec.

Okay, I'm not sure where you got the info but for giggles I'm using PIC-SIG's press release.



PCI-SIG Delivers PCI Express 2.0 Specification

PCIe Base 2.0 specification doubles the transfer rate to 5GT/s and introduces enhanced features and protocol improvements

BEAVERTON, Ore. – January 15, 2007 – PCI-SIG®, the Special Interest Group responsible for PCI Express® industry-standard I/O technology, today announced the availability of the PCI Express Base 2.0 specification. After a 60-day review of revision 0.9 of the specification in Fall 2006, members of the PCI-SIG finalized and released PCI Express (PCIe) 2.0, which doubles the interconnect bit rate from 2.5GT/s to 5GT/s to support high-bandwidth applications.

The specification seamlessly extends the data rate to 5GT/s in a manner compatible with all existing PCIe 1.1 products currently supporting 2.5GT/s signaling. The key benefit of PCIe 2.0 is its faster signaling, effectively increasing the aggregate bandwidth of a 16-lane link to approximately 16 GB/s. The higher bandwidth will allow product designers to implement narrower interconnect links to achieve high performance while reducing cost.

“In today’s world, applications are becoming more advanced and are requiring more bandwidth,” said Al Yanes, PCI-SIG chairman and president. “This is the perfect time to release PCIe 2.0, which not only supports high-bandwidth applications such as high-end graphics, but also adds many new architectural enhancements.”

In addition to the faster signaling rate, PCI-SIG working groups also added several new protocol layer improvements to the PCIe Base 2.0 specification which will allow developers to design more intelligent devices to optimize platform performance and power consumption while maintaining interoperability, low cost and fast market introduction. These architecture improvements include:

Dynamic link speed management allows developers to control the speed at which the link is operating
Link bandwidth notification alerts platform software (operating system, device drivers, etc) of changes in link speed and width Capability structure expansion increases control registers to better manage devices, slots and the interconnect Access control services allows for optional controls to manage peer-to-peer transactions Completion timeout control allows developers to define a required disable mechanism for transaction timeouts Function-level reset provides an optional mechanism to reset functions within a multi-function device Power limit redefinition enables slot power limit values to accommodate devices that consume higher power
The PCIe Base 2.0 specification is available for download at http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/base2/.

At first I was spinning my wheels wondering how they quadrupaled the speed of the 16x lane. I was able to extrapolate that they are doubling the frequency from 2500Mhz to 5000Mhz. However, the math just didn't add up (2x != 4x) Then I realized they're including both directions in the overall bandwidth totals.

But still something confuses me. Maybe I'm not keeping up with my computer terminology. So, what the deuce is GT/s? Gigatick.. Gigatock.. Gas Turbine.. Golden Tee.. Grand Turismo.. per second?! Please tell me the marketing dorks haven't ruined bus terminology, ala hard drives.

[Saturn2888]

Question mark on the last HDD terminology being ruined comment.

Also, yeah, I was questioning the GT/s thing as well. T, F, and B are close by each other, but not enough for a typo. I'm curious now. Either way, we really don't need PCIe 2.0 right now, it's just for the future because of these super multicore processors coming out in the next couple years. If your graphics card or physics card lands an 80 core processing engine w/ 4GHz GDDR4 memory, then that bandwidth would begin being used. Still, AGP is not dead, that is problematic.

At least I'll know that I support the newest tech when I upgrade my mobo to AM3 in the summer or fall or winter or whenever games start to chug on a 7600GT (or I actually acquire some money).

[efernandez_98]

Question mark on the last HDD terminology being ruined comment.

Also, yeah, I was questioning the GT/s thing as well. T, F, and B are close by each other, but not enough for a typo. I'm curious now. Either way, we really don't need PCIe 2.0 right now, it's just for the future because of these super multicore processors coming out in the next couple years. If your graphics card or physics card lands an 80 core processing engine w/ 4GHz GDDR4 memory, then that bandwidth would begin being used. Still, AGP is not dead, that is problematic.

At least I'll know that I support the newest tech when I upgrade my mobo to AM3 in the summer or fall or winter or whenever games start to chug on a 7600GT (or I actually acquire some money).

As far as computer science is concered, a gigabyte is equal to 2^30 or 1,073,741,824 bytes. However, for average human consumption, the smarty-arty marketing executives decided that a gigabyte really means 1,000,000,000 bytes.

Btw, the 2.0 spec should make it more inviting for other cards which rely on infrequent small burts of data, like sound cards. Not to mention this version for PCI-Express is a bit late. Orginally, It was supposed to have been released mid 2006. Which means PCI-Express 3.0 which is supposed to be running at 10 Ghz will probably not arrive till 2009-2010. And that's 16000 MBps each way, or an aggregate speed of 32000 MBps.

[Saturn2888]

Why even have need for PCIe 3.0? Wasn't the original PCI spec. updated once or twice and really not much supported in the updates?

Also, what's this about Soundcards not liking PCIe 1.0?

[efernandez_98]

Why even have need for PCIe 3.0? Wasn't the original PCI spec. updated once or twice and really not much supported in the updates?

Also, what's this about Soundcards not liking PCIe 1.0?

I originally quoted this interview in this thread, "Re: Video cards taken up 2 slots or 1 slot? (http://www.3dgameman.com/forums/showpost.php?p=547605&postcount=18)"

HWZ : Current HTPC systems have limited PCI interface options, or even none on some. Will there be X-Fi variants based on the PCI Express platform? Will Creative be considering to switch to PCI Express for newer generation of sound cards?

Steve Erickson : Currently we have somewhat been successful in Taiwan in putting chips into the motherboard. Shuttle is one of our partners in this example. So unlike in the past, if you want to put the X-Fi chip on the motherboard, we are all for it. So that's new and that is how we are going to open the market.

As far as PCI Express (PCIe) is concerned, which is the next bus, what we found is that the performance of PCIe is truly bad for audio. We are seeing four times degradation on the bus for audio. PCIe is designed for graphics and high data transfer, but audio sends very small packets and the overhead can be very big! Moving the data across PCIe is much, much higher than PCI. So what we have to do is go back to the drawing board and work on the transport part of the chip and re-design it to add more silicon to overcome some of the problems we had with PCIe. So for us to come up with a PCIe solution is going to take a while because we have to overcome the problems we're facing with that bus.

As for the reason for the greater bus speed, basically to ensure the backbone isn't a bottleneck as newer technologies are introduced. I don't think anyone wants to deal with a divergent technology like PCI-X was to PCI. Especially, since PCIe has plenty of room to grow.

[Saturn2888]

Well I guess. So you're saying, it's like you can have a graphics card and soundcard all in one for an HTPC because the 2.0 spec will allow for less overhead? I know it sounds like I don't get it, but I'm sure I do. I'm just asking a crazy question now.

[efernandez_98]

Well I guess. So you're saying, it's like you can have a graphics card and soundcard all in one for an HTPC because the 2.0 spec will allow for less overhead? I know it sounds like I don't get it, but I'm sure I do. I'm just asking a crazy question now.

No, the overhead is the same. But, doubling the speed of the bus makes it less apparent.

[Saturn2888]

I see. Same with upping the memory speed on graphic cards then?

[efernandez_98]

I see. Same with upping the memory speed on graphic cards then?

Well, if you wanna generic rule of thumb then it's any time you raise the speed of anything; CPU, Memory, Modem Baud Rates, Network Cards, Internet Connections, Plane, Trains, and Automobiles.

[Saturn2888]

I see. I didn't know that. How does that work?

[efernandez_98]

I see. I didn't know that. How does that work?

By increasing the speed. :What the